Aditya Birla Real Estate Limited analyst Q&A

Sir, shall we begin with the question-and-answer session?

Yes, go ahead.

We take the first question from the line of Mr. Vivek Ramakrishnan from DSP Mutual Funds. Please go-ahead sir.

This is Kunal from DSP Mutual Fund. I just have one question on your Real Estate business. So since now we have so many projects in hand already in the under-construction space, and we have also acquired two projects. So I just wanted to understand how would our cash flows look like over the next 3, 4 quarters? And related to that only, how would our debt levels pan out?

So it's Vivek?

Yes, Vivek Ramakrishnan.

No, I think there is somebody else.

Kunal, from DSP.

Yes, Kunal. So right now, as you can see, our debt is somewhere around INR2,200 crores. That is a gross debt., we have another about INR400 odd crores in mutual funds and bank balances. So roughly, our debt is around INR1800 crores. So, we expect the debt to go up more or less at the same level INR2,200 crores or something like that. Hopefully, with a debt-to-EBITDA of around tw o or something. And that would take care of some of the, what you call it, investments that the real estate might be doing, which are in the pipeline at the moment, anywhere in the range of INR500 odd crores or something like that. As far as the existing projects are concerned, because of some good response that we get for our project, they are self-paying for themselves. So basically, the money that we require is only for growth capital. So that is fairly provided for us. So, we don't foresee any major issues in funding those things. So, cash flows are pretty good enough.

So, is it fair to assume that the debt level would be at the similar levels?

Yes, absolutely. So, I said that to similar levels with an approximate investment of INR500 odd crores, but if the Real Estate business is lucky enough to get more deals, probably to that extent, the debt might go up. But even with INR2,000 odd crores of debt, we were comfortably placed with about two times debt to EBITDA.

Thank you. We'll take the next question from the line of Avish Jain from Antique Stock Broking.

Congratulations for excellent response in Birla Trim aya. Sir, my first question is in terms of revenue potential, how much could be launched in the second half of FY '24? And what are those projects?

Hi Amit, K.T. here. So, our aspiration is to reach gross pre-booking value of about INR3,000 crores. We are expecting to launch the new project in Bangalore, which is R. R. Nagar, which we had acquired last year. And we are also planning to launch Walkeshwar in Q4 FY24. And we're also planning a new phase of Birla Niyaar a, Worli in the coming quarter. All of these together with our current sustenance sales should help us achieve a target of around INR3,000 crores.

Okay. And sir, my next question is on the employee cost. Sir, it has increased substantially by 14 odd percent. So why is this a sudden jump in employee costs?

I'm not sure about 14% of what. But as we grow, we keep growing, we keep increasing, we keep recruiting new people. Right now, we are on a very strong growth path. So, employee costs will keep growing. And we are not too concerned about employee growth. I think we need the right talent and the right capability to build the or ganization, and we are not leaving any stone unturned out there. And we have only about 50 employees, managing this overall project of more than 6.4 million square feet under construction. Very soon that will go to about more than 100,000, I mean 1 million -- sorry, 10 million under construction. We are handling about 12 projects. So, by that time, we are -- I mean, less than adequately staffed is what I would say. So, I think...

Actually, K.T is trying to answer it from a perspective of real estate, but I think the question that you're asking is from a Century Textiles overall expense, which has gone to from some INR87 crores to INR100 crores or something like that, right, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, yes.

So that is basically in the July cycle, we give a variable pay, and we gave you what we call it, your increments, etcetera, to our staff. So, this is a normal increase in the salary, nothing to worry about. It's already provided for in our budgets, etcetera.

Okay. The next question is, sir, how much has been the collection in Birla Niyaara? And when do you plan to launch the second tower?

So, we have approximately collected close to about INR750 crores in Birla Niyaara, approximately there. And our focus is to launch this in the coming quarter, Q4.

The next question is from the line of Akshay Ajmera from Nirzar Securities. Please go ahead.

Sir, could you please provide us a breakup of the INR700 odd crores of sales booking during the quarter?

The breakup?

Yes. I mean, project-wise we can have the breakup of from which project how much we have collected?

Yes, we can even provide you offline, if you want to take, yes. So broadly, as I said, in Birla Trimaya, which has been our launch is about INR467 crores. Navya, Gurugram is about INR108 crores. Niyaara Tower A balance whatever inventories, we have done about INR64 crores. We have done in Vanya about INR37 crores, Alokya INR14 crores, Tisya INR18 crores. Yes, so broadly, that's a breakup of the INR708 crores for quarter 2.

Okay. And sir, regarding the Paper division, we have seen that the margins have dropped drastically from 18% EBITDA margins to 10%, largely, what we see is because of realization, and what you have guided in the earlier calls is we will be targeting 20% about 20%, 22% EBITDA margin. So, can you explain this 10% EBITDA margin in terms of realization and in terms of cost input?

So Akshay, basically, we look at it this actually, it is more in the second quarter that we are seeing this as a temporary blip. So roughly, the realizations have gone down by almost around INR10,000 per ton on an aggregate basis. So, a great part of it is because of the pricing and not much on the cost front, etcetera. Essentially, the volumes are actually, the volumes have gone up compared to last quarter, but the bigger hit is on the realization front, which now is looking up. And the realization was down for various reasons. We can get into it if you want to.

This is Vijay Kaul here from Paper. Mr. Ajmera, the outlook for the next 2 quarters seems to be quite okay. And we should be doing much better than what we have done today because by 15th of September, almost the prices have bottomed out. And now the prices are slightly looking up. And as also the imports of pulp, the prices of the pulp have gone up. So, because of that, the market is also a little bit bullish on that front that the prices will increase. So, the outlook for the next 6 months is quite okay.

And we would be looking at a similar kind of margins that we enjoyed in past, 18% and above?

Yes, yes. Definitely 18% and above. Yes.

Thank you sir. The next question is from the line of Mr. Mukesh from Moon Venture. Please go ahead.

I have a couple of questions. We are going to book the revenue of 2, 3 projects in this financial year. But after that, in FY '25, '26 in Real Estate business, we are seeing that quite a bit a lull period in terms of revenue booking. And how you're trying to avoid such conditions in future years?

So, see the point is the way the real estate reve nues are booked is on completion. Unlike in the past, they used to do project percentage completion, unless you have a non-cancellable contract, etcetera, but since we are in multiple locations and the right way to do it is on percentage completion. So, it's a given that this is going to be lumpy, unless we have enough project launches, a number of projects and so that we can have steady project launches every quarter and also project deliveries every quarter going forward. So that is going to take some time. So, over the next few years, at least, it is going to be lumpy. That's the way industry is, and we have to be and that's the way it is going to be. And yes, since we have started relatively newer than many other well-established developers. So yes, this year, we'll have a chunky number. Next year, it will drop down, and it will pick up based on the deliveries. So, I don't think unless we really stack up the number of projects it'll take a few years for this to kind of become steady.

So that's what but my question is that what actions we are taking to make sure that this consistency should be taken care of and what actions we are taking on the employee side and projects launching side?

Actions are very simple, keep signing new projects, the right new projects and keep launching it and keep completing those projects as quickly as possible. Just keep on the grind, launching the acquired projects, get approvals, launch it and complete it, keep on adding that way. Since we have started, the only problem is that we have started much later than the other. The others took 15, 20 years, then we will do it in 5, 6 years more.

So far, it has been good. We have added INR16,000 crores of projects this year. We did three projects and added three new projects in Q1, two new projects in Q2. We have a very strong pipeline. There's nothing to worry about. We'll keep continuing the way we are doing it and it's all going very well for us. Yes. We have a pipeline of about INR'45,000 crores of gross development value. We are looking at adding another about INR'10,000 crores this year, maybe another INR'20,000 crores next year. And we have enough and more gunpowder for that. So, we are pretty confident that we are on the right track.

That's great to hear, sir. Sir, one more question on the side of Worli project. Your RERA approval is in FY'28, but we feel that as the speed of execution is quite good, can we be able to deliver it much before in FY'27?

As of now, it's going good but we'll stick to our guidance of '28. Maybe we can deliver it a few quarters before. But we are still in the early stages, so we'll continue with our current guidance.

Okay, sir. Small suggestion from our side, sir. Can you provide project wise collection of all the projects? It will be better for us.

Sure, we can give it to you offline.

Okay, sir. Thanks a lot. Keep doing good work.

Thank you.

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sourabh Gilda from Motilal Oswal Financial Services. Please go ahead, sir.

Yes, congrats on the good quarter sir. I just had one question on the cash flow. Can you please let us know what was the outflows for the two business-driven projects that we did? And overall, do we have any targeted outflow for bidding this year?

I think roughly, we spent INR'300 odd crores this year, outflows for new projects that we have signed, and we have provided for another INR'500 crores expected outflows for the balance of the year.

Okay. So, INR'300 crores as in after this INR'300 crores or do we have any payment for this year? Or will it get filled up in the balance INR'500 crores portion?

So, these projects one project was basically a JV. So, we –have already put in the required deposits and balance of purchase of land, which also we have done. So, there is nothing much further on the current what we have done. But now there are quite a few projects in the pipeline. The moment we sign deals that based on either la nd acquisition or joint venture, we will put in the money and we provide it by INR'500 crores. We are okay to add another INR'500 crores if we are lucky to find good products.

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Avish Jain from Antique Stock Broking. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you for the opportunity once again. Sir my question is, sir, when do we see our Gurugram project to launch? And what was the GDV for this project?

Gurugram has already launched now. Birla Navya, we launched it in 2020. We are now we have sold almost INR'1,500 crores there. Are you talking about Gurugram? Or you talking about Delhi, the project, which we signed this year?

Sir, I'm talking about the third phase. When do we plan to launch that?

The new phase. So, we are planning to launch this in Q4. So, if lucky we'll go ahead because there is some resistance from the Haryana government. They're not clearing some of these floor projects. They're saying instead of four floors, we'll clear only three floors. So, all these projects which are floor projects are currently stuck at the government level. We are hoping that it will get cleared by either Q4 or it may go, there's a possibility it may go into the next quarter. Yes. So that was in financial year, I'm sorry, yes.

And sir, what was the GDV for this project for third phase?

About INR'1,000 crores.

Okay. And so, is there a possibility of any further project acquisition?

Yes, yes lots of possibilities. Several projects are in the line. They're lined up.

Okay. That's it from my side. Thank you.

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Mr. Mithun Soni from Geecee Investments. Please go ahead, sir.

Sir, just one query. Can you share like what has been our collection efficiency? In the sense, how much we would have asked for from our customers and how much we have got?

Yes. So, thank you for the question. So of course, aided by a very strong rising market, positive market, collections have been very healthy and strong and efficiency is unheard of, is close to more than 98%, is an extremely positive, unheard sort of efficiency in collections.

This is for Q2 or for H1?

Overall.

Overall.

We look more from the point of view...

Yes. And sir, can you share like what has been our construction cost? Like how much construction expense altogether where we would have spent the cost

We have a checklist item. We can do that. We can better those numbers we can share you offline. Construction cost varies from project to project, region to region, stage of the construction.

what I mean to say is that just the overall, if we would have got about X collection for this quarter against that so...

Yes. We can give that number. I mean we'll have to kind of take it out, but we can share that with you offline.

Okay. And one request, sir. So, like if you can provide a waterfall like in the sense, given the booking, what is the overall collection we are doing, construction costs we are spending, on how much money is going towards development, business development expense, keep investments? So, what is the cash flow? So that will give us a good feel as to how are things moving for us.

Yes. This keeps varying from project to project, but we can send you those...

If it is combined also is fine for now. Like whatever is convenient for you.

Yes. Okay.

Okay. Perfect. Thank you, sir.

Thank you. We take the next question from the line of Mr. Karan Mehta, an individual investor. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you for the opportunity. I just have a couple of questions. Firstly, on the Paper segment, our power and fuel costs have decreased drastically. So is this trend sustainable?

Sorry, I couldn't get your...

Power cost has reduced...

Yes, power cost yes, we are focusing on the total energy cost and that has gone down considerably. And we have got the -- linkages of coal, which has been revived by us of late. And because of that, we got the coal at a reasonably good rate, which earlier we had to purchase from the market and the market rates are quite high. So, the coal rate has also decreased and the consumption also of coal has decreased at ou r power plant, yes. And we are continuously working on that and we want to see that we come to the world benchmark as far as the power consumption is concerned.

Okay. So, this trend will continue for the whole year?

Okay. Sir, secondly, on the Real Estate business. So, we have done great business development and land purchases in the last two quarters. So, what's your outlook on further land purchases and business development for the rest of the year?

Our outlook is very positive, Karan. We have several projects to be signed, lined up in all our markets, chosen market, be it NCR, Bombay, Pune and Bangalore. We are pretty confident that we'll be adding at least another INR'10,000 crores of new projects the way things are looking up. Yes.

Okay. Sir, so on this, we don't expect our debt level to increase by more than INR'500 crores...

Yes, that Snehal has already explained to you how these pos itions. So, we are not too much worried about that part.

Okay. And sir, you mentioned that the Haryana government is like not allowing...

Yes, there has been some PIL, and they are considering it. The matter is at the Chief Minister's Office. It hasn't moved for quite some time. All the developers are stuck and we are hoping that there will be some positive resolution soon.

Okay. Sir, in case that if the Haryana government doesn't allow us to do so, do we have any plans to launch a three-floor project for the Gurugram project?

Yes. I would rather not of course, that's the only thing because there's I mean, 25% of the FSI going down is not a very favourable situation. So, we'd rather wait and hope that things would change and the government will favour us.

Okay. Fine, thanks a lot, sir. I'll get back in the queue.

Excuse me, I think the earlier gentleman wanted some cash flow details, breakup of project. I think if we can look at Slide number 35 on our earnings presentation, he will get a division-wise breakup of all kinds of different lines of expenditure.

It's already provided.

Thank you, sir. The next question is from the line of Mr. Amit Srivastava. Please go ahead, sir.

Yes. Congratulations on a very good response on Birla Trimaya and good scale up on a real estate. Sir, I have two questions. One is that when we are talking about debt to EBITDA of 2x means, we are including the EBITDA of real estate. And what is the kind of revenue which is to be booked in the next six months, like in the next two quarters? And what is the kind of margin profile we'll get into in this project as it is now into the commissioning phase?

So, Amit, roughly real estate revenue, we are expecting around INR'2,000 crores. It all depends upon people coming up to take possession and paying their balance and concluding the sale completely because you know that we have to book the revenue only when the customer pays. Even if we are ready for possession, he has to come and make a final payment, sometimes some customers delay those things and all. Roughly, based on whatever is available for delivery, we are expecting around INR'2,000 crores of, what you call it, revenue from real estate.

In terms of margin, sir, in EBITDA margins, what kind of margin you are looking at?

On this, on the real estate?

Yes, INR'2,000 crores, which we are going to book. So broadly, what is the range?

Roughly. 25% to 30%.

Okay. Second question on in terms of the Birla Niyaara, sir, what is the current rate which we are selling? And what is the kind of inventory, wh ich is remaining, like it's on a larger size or now it is on two BHK kind of which is remaining? And second, when we are going to launch the second phase, the rates will be at a similar rate or we'll be launching at a premium? How it's going to be played out in terms of value also if you give the second phase?

Yes. Amit, so largely, as you know, we mentioned about 85% of the inventory is sold. So, what is left is some of these larger apartments at the top, like the duplex apartments, etcetera, which is also now gaining traction. And maybe a few two and three bedrooms here and there. We're not too keen to sell those now because it’s just one year old. There is other four, five years of construction left, so we would rather sell it at higher prices. Currently, we are selling at INR'80,000 per square foot. Strategy for Tower B will be more kind of conceptualized closer to the launch. But looking at the market conditions and the dynamics at that point of time, we will formulate the strategy for Tower B.

And currently, what is the rate going on, sir, in terms of carpet?

Roughly about INR'80,000 to INR'85,000 per square foot.

Okay. Got it.

Thank you.

Sir, next question is related to Paper division. So basically, we have already sir has said that we have seen that bottoming up, and we are aiming for, again, a similar kind of margin. But on our current pricing trend, what is the level of profit ability, sir? Where are we in terms of EBITDA margin? Are we close to 15% or still we need more improvement in profit pricing to get into that zone?

See, we have gone into a two-pronged thing. One is that from 1st of October, we have increased our prices because the prices had bottomed out. So, we had no other alternative, but to increase the prices. So, we have increased the prices by INR'2, INR'3 in the market. That is number one. On the other front, we are working on reducing the cost structure as to how whether it is a power cost or the steam cost or even the pulp cost. So, we are trying to reduce the cost there. So, in my opinion, if you talk about the next quarter, our margin should be something around 17%.

Yes.

Okay. Great, sir. Thank you very much for opportunity.

Thank you.

The next question is from the line of Mr. Raj from Arjav Partners. Please go ahead.

How many units are we expected to deliver in FY '24?

Units. There are three projects in three different regions we are planning. So roughly in the range of about 1,500 units, all three cumulative.

1,500 units. And how much are there in H...

Sorry.

1500 is for overall, right, FY '24?

That's correct.

All right. And how much have you already given in H1?

So, we are just starting to do it.

All right. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you.

The next question is from the line of Mr. Akshay Ajmera from Nirzar Securities. Please go ahead, sir.

Hi. Thank you for taking my question again. Sir, my question is regarding the Real Estate business project. Birla, Vanya, Alokya and Navya, we are nearing to deliver and hand over the three projects very soon now. So is there any overshoot in the projected cost, which you must have envisaged earlier initially, including any price escalation or inflation, that kind of the cost. So, is there any overshoot in the budged cost that you might have actually thought for and how much that would be?

Thank you, Akshay. I'm very happy to let you know that there is a zero increase in the budget. We are all well budgeted despite the major crisis of COVID and this thing, etcetera, we have been well within our budget. We were able to manage our cost very astutely.

Thank you, sir. The next question is from the line of Mr. Vignesh Iyer from Sequent Investments. Please go ahead.

No, it will be more or less the same. We are now almost literally 100% occupancy, zero vacancy at this point of time in both premises. So, it will be more or less steady. We are getting an average about 190, 195 bucks per square foot. We expect that to remain like that.

Right. And my second question is on Birla Niyaara side, our current phase. I just wanted to know, what is the inventory, which is unsold as of now? If you could give me on square feet side or unit-wise, anything would be helpful?

About 414 was the number of units when we launched it in February '22. As we speak, we have done about 350 or 355, exact number I don't know, but yes, there is about 50, 55 apartments are balance.

Okay. Got it. That's all from my side and all the best, sir.

Thank you.

The next question is from the line of Mr. Himanshu from Dhruv Gems. Please go ahead, sir.

Yes. Hi. I would like to know, whether we are going to track in the next three years to four years for around INR10,000 crores of top line, which you have guided?

Absolutely, bang on track.

Okay. So, for that, as you said before in the concall, we are like looking at another INR25,000 crores, INR30,000 crores of projects

Yes, every year, not just overall. Every year, we'll be looking at that sort of number.

Every year INR20,000 crores, INR25,000 crores?

Yes. Right.

That's great. And one more thing I would like to ask you, what is the outlook on own lands, like the one in Prabhadevi. We have another land in Pune, etcetera, everywhere, right? The company owns the land. So, what is the outlook over there?

See the outlook is pretty futuristic at this point of time. We have enough and more inventory at Worli, etcetera. So, it will, we are not looking for an immediate launch in the next two years, three years on these projects. That's why we are concentrating on a lot of the other projects also. So, we have our hands full. Whenever we think it's a right and opportunity time, we will figure out these launches.

Yes. But we have enough and more at Worli to focus there at this point of time. And once we kind of dispense this reasonable amount of this inventory, then we can think about that. We don't want to cannibalize these markets for very similar micro markets.

Okay. And one more thing I want to ask, like, if you must be knowing like a project like a Raheja Atithya, which is like quite close to our project. So, they are selling around 1,00,000, 1,10,000 or 1,20,000, I don't know exactly, but so the next phase of our project, can we expect around 80,000, 85,000, 90,000 square feet? Or it'll be like more premium than this one, like a bigger size and all that?

Yes. Good question. So yes, so as we are of co urse, we are figuring up. We are planning to do much larger formats, taking into the consideration of the current demand in the market. Pricing is in there something which we sort of finalize more when we are closer to the launch, will conceptualize. It's too early to determine. Now we'll examine situation at that point of time. The only difference between Raheja and us, being Raheja is ready possession and there's hardly any inventory left there. They have started this project five years, six years, seven years back. So that's in a very different stage of development, and we are in a very different stage of development. We are just beginning and it's a futuristic kind of a project. But I can assure you that the kind of amenities, the kind of space that we are working on is going to be no less than any other project.

Correct. So, if we launch also the bigger ticket size ones, units and all, so you're confident that we'll be doing very well. That's second phase, right?

Yes. We're very, very confident of our product. We're also very confident on the kind of product sizes that we choose. We would like to match it as per the prevailing market demands.

And should we look at around 50% net profit margin from that Niyaara project?

Yes, that's something which should be possible. Considering the kind of the demand is in that market currently, I think that is something which should be possible by the time we finish that project.

Because if you are selling at 80,000, 85,000 and our costing is like, you said 20,000, 25,000, right? But that's for built-up, is it?

Yes. That two numbers are not relatable. The 80,000, 85,000 currently is on carpet. And when I'm saying 20,000, 25,000 is the cost, which will be by the end of the project, by end of the time, considering all escalations and everything, when the project gets finished maybe five years, six years, seven years ahead.

So, we should look at around 50% margin?

I think something that we should aspire for.

Thank you.

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Mr. Dixit Doshi from Whitestone Financial Advisors. Please go ahead, sir.

Yes. Sir, I just missed one thing when you talked mentioning about this next second half, we’re going to book INR2,000 crores revenue, right? When you're mentioning about the EBITDA margin percentage, you said 25%, 30%, I just wanted to confirm that?

Yes, broadly in that range. We will be able to confirm that again as closer we finish and execute and hand over, but yes, that's the sort of aspiration we have to.

Okay. And this Niyaara Tower 2, what will be the size of the project in terms of square feet?

Square feet, it will be similar to Tower A, around 8.5, 9 lakh square feet.

8.5 to 9 lakh square feet. So, when that ballpark number of sales that we can generate is with nine lakh square feet into whatever INR80,000, INR90,000 per square feet realization that will get, right?

Right. Yes. So 8 lakh, 8.5 lakh is not carpet, that's saleable.

That is what you construct. Carpet will be much lesser.

Yes. You're right.

Okay, which is around 15%, 20% lesser?

Usually, our markup is about the carpet to saleable is about 60% to 65%.

So 65% of 9 lakh

Yes, you can figure that out.

Okay. That's it. Thank you.

Thank you. We'll take the next question from the line of Karan Mehta, an individual investor. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you, sir, for giving me the opportunity again. First, my first question is for the Paper segment. How confident are we to achieve 18% and above EBITDA margins for Paper in Q3? And what would be our guidance for margins for full year FY '24?

How confident we are? We have told you how much we will be doing already. I don't know, how we have to give you the confidence on that. we have told you the present situation, and we have told you, what actions we are taking to get to those margins. So that's why we are more or less confident about it, but we don't know because the Israel and Palestinian war is going on. Anything can happen anywhere in the world. So keeping those factors aside, we are balanced, we are totally confident about that.

And what will be your guidance for full year FY '24?

Yes, we should be around 15%, 16% on the overall. Yes.

Okay. And sir, one question on the textile business. So we had guided on cost as rationalization measures and so what will be the impact of these rationalization measures on our margin going forward? Like how do we see the margin trajectory?

The restructuring we've done is essentially getting rid of our spinning and weaving units, and we are slowly moving towards on 100% outsourced model. So earlier we used to do about out of one lakh meters, we used to do about 45% is to be outsourced. Now we'll have to outsource almost 100%. So, it's a slow progress because immediately you can't ramp up to 100%. So slowly and steadily, we are trying to make progress. In the meantime, what is happening is the fixed cost continues, and we are not having full production. So, we don't see a major change in the margin at the moment probably because of high fixed costs and low production as well as demand supply situation being not so favourable, possibly we'll be continuing with some losses in the business.

Okay. Fine, sir. That's it from my side. Thank you.

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Mr. Manish Maheshwari from Equity At Work. Please go ahead, sir.

Sir, what is our net debt as on 30, September?

Net debt would be around INR1,800 odd crores.

Okay. Sir, our debt has increased dramatically, right?

It was INR1,000 crores in the beginning of the y ear, but then we had a lot of acquisitions that we did during the year. So naturally, plus there are some capex expenditures going on in our Paper business. All those are and then we raised this INR900 crores loan, which is a lease discounting loan, of which we have not yet utilized the entire loan. So that is sitting with us around INR400 cror es odd. Gross debt is IN R2,200 odd crores, you reduce INR400 crores and you get INR1,800 crores. So my debt has gone up only by INR800 crores. That's not significant. If I have to grow my Real Estate business, I should be actually having much higher debt. In fact, I'm telling my CEO to use money, just like all of you are telling him.

I'm saying, my debt is just INR1,800 odd crores, which is nothing significant or worrisome thing. And I'm telling my Real Estate CEO to add more take more money from me, which is what all of you sitting down there want him to do is what I'm trying to tell.

So sir, that prompts me to ask you a very compelling question here, which is investors are consider Century Textiles as a real estate play, right? So going forward, maybe in the foreseeable future, do we see a possibility of doing an equity carve-out or spinoff for Birla estates and listing

So what, I forgot his name. Manish, you started w ith a question saying that INR2,200 crores is very high are you not worried about this debt. Now I need my Paper business because my Paper business is a cash cow for us. So if my Paper business stops giving me cash, then I'll be increasing more debt for my Real Estate business to grow faster. Will you be happy with that? So till the time, real estate is able to finance its growth through its own capital, till that time, we will need some support from the other businesses. So, from our strategic purpose as a company, we believe that, we should continue with the Pulp and Paper business. When Real Estate becomes completely self-sufficient, that is probably the time when we try thinking of unlocking the value of the Real Estate business. I hope that helps you.

Right, sir. Thank you so much.

Thank you, sir. As there...

I'm sorry, you ensure that we close before 5:15, that's a hard stop.

Yes, sir. As there are no further questions from the participants, I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.

Thank you all for participating in this earnings concall. If you have any further questions or would like to know more about the company, please reach out to our IR Manager as well as our advisor. Thank you. Good bye.

Thank you. On behalf of JM Financial Institutional Securities Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us and you may now disconnect your lines.