ACC Limited analyst Q&A

Thank you very much. Our first question comes from the line of Amit Murarka from Axis Capital. Please go ahead.

Yes. So just on the operating performance, frankly, like adjusted for incentives, it seems like quite a weak quarter operationally and in terms of EBITDA per ton, it's only INR537 per ton, if I just remove the onetime incentive in the numbers. So just wondering why the performance has dropped so much sequentially like it is lower realization as well as higher costs, so just wondering about the numbers here.

Yes. So good question. So, if you see, we have done well on the volume growth. Overall, I think our volume has grown by 17%. However, as you know, we also have now volume of Penna and Sanghi in the overall consol volumes. So about 1.4 million tons is coming out of Sanghi and Penna. And also, the cost structures of both the companies are currently under the phase where we are launching various initiatives to reduce cost. The capacity utilization also of these two entities is still sub-40%. So, I think some part of that cost is obviously now coming into the consol cost of Ambuja and ACC. Besides that, there were 4 big plants of Ambuja, and ACC, which were under shutdown during this phase. And some of those plants, whether it was Wadi and Kymore for ACC, Maratha and Rabriyawas for Ambuja. Some of them were going in for retrofitting of coolers upgradation and 1 or 2 plants were for routine maintenance. So, I think as a result of that, there was more drawdown from the inventory. So, you also have inventory impact, and also about INR100-150 impact because of the newly acquired assets, which are currently under ramping-up phase. My estimate is in the next financial year, both the assets should go up, I think Sanghi earlier and Penna because it's also in the market where it takes time to ramp up. But both of them should hit 70% plus utilization levels in the next financial year. And thereby, with our initiatives on costs that we have launched, I think we should start seeing this coming down. So, this is more of a one-off rather than a standard.

A couple of points, Amit, so that it will also pre-empt for other questions as well. See, when we compare Y-on-Y, this is like first full-fledged quarter which will have Sanghi, Penna, Asian and Tuticorin assets. So, like if you compare, say, December '23 versus December '24, December '23, Sanghi was just consolidated for hardly 15-20 days of operation because in December’23, we achieved the closing of Sanghi. And even for the September’24 quarter, Penna was only for partial period of the quarter, when we acquired in somewhere, 16th of August, it got effectively consolidated. So only 1.5 months was there for September’24 quarter. So, Q-on-Q or Y-on-Y, whatever you take, this is the first quarter where all these 4 acquisitions, Sanghi, Penna, Asian and Tuticorin, are getting consolidated. Therefore -- you will compare it with this background as well. Second point, while I don't understand like in terms of how people would look at it, but incentives are very much part and parcel of this business. And with every investment which is being made is entitled for incentives. Even as we speak, for example, like as an Ambuja consol, we are sitting on a larger incentive bucket of almost INR4,500 crores to be received in due course. And even the earlier incentives, which have been in arrears, which will be received. Therefore, if you see even September, there has been an income of incentive for the past period. And likewise, the good thing is that at least these cash flows are now coming back to the balance sheet, which were lying somewhere, the working capital was getting blocked. So therefore, given the legacies of these companies, good thing is the business is able to resolve many of these cases because the next question will also come in terms of the direct taxation where we have also added some of the provisions back and on -- both on the direct tax and the indirect tax, lots of efforts are going on to basically set the disputes and resolve them and bring the money back into the balance sheet. So, incentives plays an extremely important role in the overall business.

And -- but realization is also down Q-o-Q. So, I was a bit surprised with that also because we know that there were price hikes in December, and January. I mean industry has seen improvement, but here both ACC and now even Ambuja has reported a Q-o-Q drop?

So, as I mentioned, 1.4 million tons of sales in this quarter that we've reported is coming out of markets and also consolidated of performance of companies, which earlier were almost operating at 0% utilization in the base period. So south, Penna is almost 1 million tons. And the prices in south are more depressed. So that is also having an impact. The December price increases happened towards the mid of December, and you will see impact of that in the Q4.

Sure, sure. And just quickly, could you provide the MSA volume also in the quarter, both ACC, Ambuja?

Sure. So, the MSA volumes for this quarter were total about 4.5 million tons overall, more or less equal for both the companies.

The next question comes from the line of Navin Sahadeo from ICICI Securities.

So just to be a little more specific because on the -- if we exclude the incentives, I mean, you did explain that incentives are part and parcel. But if we just try to like exclude the incentive, significantly, there has been an increase in other expenses in particular. The variable cost per se is reasonably okay. But we are seeing significant increase in the other expenses. Even the employee cost sequential increase is very much understandable. So, wanted to just understand how much of it could be one-off in nature here? Because sequentially, there is an increase of almost INR330 crores in that particular line item. So just wanted to get a sense, is there any one-offs here? Or this is more like a maintenance run rate that we should see because we have periodic maintenance at other kilns also?

Navin, good observation. And this also has the same reference to what I highlighted. When you compare again Y-on-Y, there is a sharp jump on other expenses on account of, a: because of consolidation of say, Penna, Sanghi and other assets here. And therefore, the fixed overheads of those companies will get consol here, number one. Number two, there have been a higher consumption of stores and spares and on account of shutdown of some of the kilns, which also we had informed about the plant shutdowns and all. So, some of these kilns like Marwar, Rabriyawas, it has gone through. And especially like for Penna, just to keep it up and running, Ganeshpahad and Tandur also we incurred some of these efficiency investments. And I'm so happy that the investments have started giving very good results because Penna kilns are operating at very good capacities. And on top of it, if you see the volume growth 17%, that also has been on account of, say, a good level of, say, investment on the branding and marketing, which has seen a higher investment this quarter. And with this market share, which has been sustained and captured more with these investments, I'm sure this will yield much more better expansion of EBITDA given that Sanghi, Penna, Tuticorin all will now start delivering sizable volumes with the foundation work which has been incurred for this quarter. I mean, it is a highly operating leverage business. So, like the investment which go in one quarter will start yielding sizable returns being an operating leverage concept in the coming quarters.

Yes, helpful. And second, just a question was on the MSA volume. Ajay ji did mention that total volumes we got from Sanghi and Penna together is about 1.4 million for the quarter. How much would be Sanghi out of that? I mean, if you could just break up.

0.4 million would be Sanghi and I think -- 0.5 million is Sanghi and 0.9 million is Penna.

Correct. So -- yes, yes, sorry, you did mention about that. So, Sanghi per se, I just observing some numbers because in Q4, March quarter, it had did almost 8 lakhs, and 0.4 million is very similar to what we saw in Q2 also. So is it still in the ramp-up phase because that's -- all said and done, it's a 6 million ton -- 6.6 million tons clinker and 6-million-ton cement. So, Is it still being highly underutilized? Are there challenges there of evacuation? How should one look at it?

No. So, Navin, very good question. As I mentioned in the previous section, Sanghi has two kilns. We have already completely done cost optimization and shutdown optimization of one kiln. Second kiln, as I speak to you, is currently shut down, and we are taking all major repairs and maintenance. One of our power plants is also under shutdown and also being taken into full repairs and maintenance. The 37% is the Sanghi cement utilization for this quarter, which was 22% same quarter last year. And in the sequential previous quarter, it was 23%. So, in the market, the growth is coming in, however, at a slightly lower pace. But I'm very confident that with all these repairs and maintenance, which was very much needed, I think by March end, these assets should start delivering almost 80%, 85% utilization. So, there is no issue on evacuation. There's purely issue on maintenance, and that's also some of the money which has gone in this quarter in our shutdown expenses. And Penna, I like to mention what my colleague, Vinod, just mentioned, the clinker utilization of Penna is as high as 78% already. However, the cement utilization is sub-40%, which it takes time to ramp up because, mind you, both Sanghi and Penna, we have transited to Ambuja and ACC brands, which are obviously selling in category A versus the previous brands, which were selling in category B and C. So obviously, that needs substantial investments in the market. We are also putting more troops on the ground, so that needs more hiring in the front-line sales and then brand and distribution investments.

The next question comes from Ashish Jain from Macquarie.

Sir, firstly, on growth. So, if we look at the volumes of 16.5 million tons adjusted for Sanghi and Penna because I think they were not there in the base quarter, then the growth is much tepid at around only 6%, 7%. Is that how we should look at it? Or do you think there is something missing here?

Ashish, thanks for asking that question. The way to look at it is the utilization of Ambuja and ACC, if I remove the others, is near 80%. Last year same quarter, it was 76%. So, we have -- the industry in the quarter 3, we believe should have grown around 5%. So, the traditional volume that we have, where there is no new capacity, it has grown at about 7%, which is slightly higher than the industry growth. And wherever we are having new capacity, we have grown much more at 11%. So, I think that's a mix. It's a very logical mix.

Okay, okay. Sir, secondly, looking at the numbers, so I understand your point on consol numbers. But if I look at Ambuja standalone also, that also is showing a significant jump in costs both on a sequential basis and very flattish cost on a Y-o-Y basis. So other expenses bit, I think, is what you explained in terms of repair and maintenance and all which includes Ambuja facility as well. But apart from that also looks like costs have inched higher on both sequential and Y-o-Y basis. Can you...

So, what happens, Ashish, this I think I'll address for others also who'll come in the queue. I mentioned this last time also. Increasingly, we have to look at Ambuja as a consol balance sheet because when Ambuja does its business, it looks at the -- we cannot look at some of parts. We look at the whole. And at a whole level, we try and optimize each area, for example, Penna assets immediately in the first quarter of -- second quarter, we have taken it to 78%. Whereas the Sanghi, we have not been able to take because of some plant-related issues. So, I would rather focus on overall Ambuja cost because that's the way I look at the balance sheet now.

Yes, just to like to take that clue also, Ashish, like as also we have disclosed in -- let's go to Slide number 17 of the presentation. You will see that the raw material cost has gone up on account of purchase clinker. Now between the companies, Ambuja standalone says purchase, but on a consol it gets eliminated. So therefore, as rightly said by Ajay ji, we will have to look it on a consol, else you'll find little aberration in some line items.

Got it, got it. That helps. Sir, just one last question. So, Sanghi and Penna volumes are flowing both in ACC and Ambuja or it's largely Ambuja where they are flowing in?

That's true. What we follow is whichever brand has a bit of brand value in the market, we position that as a lead brand. But in some markets, both the brands are lead brands. So, this is more to acquire market share at a highest possible price. That's why I said, sum of parts, it would be very difficult for me to answer. If I look at consol, that's the best way to answer.

The next question comes from Raashi Chopra from Citigroup.

Just coming back to the sequential pricing question someone had asked earlier. If I just remove the incentives, it appears that the pricing is about flattish sequentially. But then if I move the one-off from the incentive, it appears that the sequential incentives have declined. Can you explain that, please?

No. So, Raashi, I'm sure you're looking at consol numbers, and on a consol number, if you see, last quarter, for example, we had incentives coming for one of the plants for the previous period, which is for the Sankrail. Now if you remove that also, say, closer to INR135 crores, if I remember, and then you will see that the numbers which you will find is almost INR100 crores between both say September and say for that matter for December also. However, as I said, now, for example, the way we are focusing on all these incentives, you will find some of these items of the previous years, which will keep building on and which is also actually going to help me to release the working capital. So, to summarize, Sankrail was in the previous quarter. This time, it is for the Himachal, which is disclosed in the notes of the financial statements as well.

Sorry, what was the Sankrail amount in the previous quarter?

Ballpark around INR130 crores to INR135 crores.

So, if I have to just take normalized incentives for you, not based on prior period accruals, what would that be like on a per ton basis?

It would be on increasing trend now. Historically, say, it was around, say, INR100-odd crores of incentive per quarter, almost INR400 crores for a year. But this will actually now start moving up to INR600 crores, INR650-odd crores prospectively with new capacities coming in and giving the benefit of incentives. So yes, INR400 crores to INR500 crores in the past and now INR600 crores to INR650 crores and prospectively going further up.

Okay. Secondly, on the cost side, I think I just missed some of the breakdown from Mr. Kapur on what are all the cost savings would be. Like logistics, I think you mentioned was INR100. What were the other components on the cost savings going forward from here?

Raashi, I mentioned about coal costs coming down. I mentioned about Khavda 200 megawatts green which got commissioned in Q3. I think you will see the full effect of that coming in Q4, but still better effect coming in first quarter of next year because it takes time to stabilize. As I speak to you, we have almost reached full potential of 200 megawatts in the last week of December -- sorry, January. So, I believe in February, March, I should see a much better impact of the Khavda 200-megawatt Green project. Waste heat recoveries are further going up. So, I think that you'll see in time to come, the cost improvement. Freight, we continue to be best in class amongst the large cement companies. If you look at benchmarking also, our drop in freight and forwarding cost will be the best. With the investment, as I mentioned in my opening on bulk cement wagons for fly ash, as they start coming in every month or every quarter, this will continue to further improve our fly ash cost. So, I think increasingly, what Vinod mentioned in the beginning, our end-state target is to drop down the total cost to about INR3,700-3,800 over the next couple of years, that's the target.

And this target still holds despite the Penna, Sanghi, putting all of that together? So, these are on a consolidated basis?

Yes. So, Penna, Sanghi were under-invested in some areas like waste heat in Penna. Sanghi line 2, we have already ordered or about to order the Waste Heat Recovery System. All these initiatives, plus the additional 800-megawatt green, which is currently approved by the Board and currently under active investment. And all the other initiatives that I mentioned, plus the entire Indian Peninsula Sea network that we are going to do through ships, both from Sanghi and then from Penna. I think all this is going to help us become lowest cost.

Understood. Just one last question from me. On the capex side, it's INR8,000 crores for this year, the target?

Yes. I think our number for the full year should be around INR6,800 crores to INR7,000 crores.

And 9 months, how much is that?

I think 9 months, we are around INR5,500 crores, if I'm not mistaken. Around INR6,000 crores.

INR6,200 crores to be precise, which we have achieved so far, and we are well on our target for the financial year.

Sorry, INR6,200 crores for 9 months and INR7,000 crores for the full year?

For the full year, it is closer to INR9,000 crores. And so, another INR2,200 crores will go for this quarter. And that's precisely like because a lot of these 4-5 facilities, which are like in the last leg, again, to refresh, Sankrail, Bhatapara, Marwar, then we have Sindri, and then we have one more, Salai Banwa and all. So, like there's now a good level of say momentum coming in terms of the capex program. So almost INR2,000 crores to INR2,500 crores will be for the March quarter.

The next question comes from Rahul Gupta from Morgan Stanley.

Earlier during the call, you mentioned that around INR4,500 crores incentives could be received over a period of time. Any idea over what time period can we expect these incentives?

Rahul, as per the approved schemes, this should come within next 7 to 9 years.

So, is it safe to assume that you would see additional around INR500 crores every year on top of INR600 crores on the expanded capacity?

I would put it ballpark, yes.

The next question comes from Indrajit Agarwal from CLSA.

One question. On Penna and Sanghi, what is the current cost differential versus our traditional capacities, ballpark?

So, Sanghi, because it is currently not running in full load. So, I would say it's at least about 10% to 15% higher than Ambuja cost. Penna would be also the same. So, we expect 10% to 15% -- 15% maybe reduction in the cost of both the companies on a per ton basis.

So, once you have undertaken all your initiatives, can the costs of these companies come in line with your target of INR3,650 or there will be some cost disabilities still there in these two acquired assets?

Okay. So basically, if you see the end state INR3,650 has two major cost buckets, one is your cost of production and one is your logistics cost, largely, these are the biggest buckets. Now depending upon the market, some plants will be even lower than this and some plants will be slightly higher than this because the plants in North, for example, in hills, will have a different cost structure because of the hill rates of per ton per kilometer. And the plants which are sitting on road-based markets, they have a different cost structure. I think this is an average of the company. Some of the Penna plants, for example, the ones which are located close to big cities like Ganeshpahad, Tandur, I think they would end up at a very low cost. And maybe one-odd plant might be slightly higher, it all depends on because we also have kilns, which are vintage kilns. We can improve it through solar, we can improve it through waste heat. At this moment, Penna doesn't have any alternate fuels. So, we have to make some investments to make the kilns capable of taking alternate fuels. On an average, all our kilns range from 10% to some of them at 25%. The moment I bring in 10%, 15% or 20% alternate fuels, which the cost is less than INR1 versus traditional fuel of INR1.60, INR1.70 in that part of the country, you can see a substantial savings coming out of there. So, I think Penna plants and Sanghi -- Sanghi, in fact, I believe in time to come, will be one of our lowest cost operations.

The next question comes from Prateek Kumar from Jefferies.

I have a couple of questions. First question is on your cash flow, your current cash and cash equivalent, INR8,800 crores. So, what is the expected outflow for Orient in Q4? And what is the expected like sort of closing cash? Will we like sort of move to like a cash neutral position by end of FY '25? And my other question is regarding cost. So, like versus the INR3,650 cost targeted, what is the cost we had in Q3 for this year -- I mean, basically the current quarter?

Okay. On the first question, Prateek, in terms of the expected outgo for Orient, that is ballpark around INR4,000-odd crores, which will be there. And what is your second question?

Cost. So, I think the cost I answered already in the opening, and you will also find it in the deck that we have loaded. It's closer to INR4,600 and end state is INR3,700, INR3,650-odd.

Okay. So INR1,000 swing from current quarter on the back of both new plants, old plants. Is that what we are looking at?

Yes. We have a clear road map, and we can connect offline as well, take you through details.

In Orient's INR4,000 crores cash flow, so INR8,800 crores, nothing is accounted as of now, right?

Yes, except like whatever you have to deposit with SEBI for the escrow and all, that has been done. Otherwise, when the transaction gets consummated, the promoters will be paid off.

And this includes open offer as well, open offer values?

No, that will be separate. That will follow through, post this quarter, in the middle of next year.

Okay. So that will be next year. Okay.

The next question comes from Jashandeep Singh Chadha from Nomura.

Sir, my first question is largely on cost. Correct me if I'm wrong, Sanghi has better thermal consumption than I think Ambuja consol prior to the acquisition. I just want to understand how much time and capex will it take to bring Sanghi and Penna to Ambuja's cost structure and operational efficiency. And out of the INR530 per ton cost saving target that you have given, how much of it would have already been realized? That's my first question.

So basically, two things have happened. Some cost has been already realized in the Ambuja ACC balance sheets. However, with the acquisition of new companies, which, as I mentioned already, for the sake of repetition, are still under stabilization phase, an asset to give you its full efficiency and all KPIs needs to operate at 80--85%. Currently, one asset is sub-40%, one asset is sub-50%. As we ramp both of them to 80%, you'll start seeing the cost numbers that we are talking, number one. Number two, all the initiatives, which is like waste heat in Sanghi Line 2, which we have now ordered, it takes about 12 months to come in. So, I think in the next financial year, you will see that impact coming in. So, I would say a ballpark figure of closer to INR1,000 crores between the 2 entities in various initiatives is what is needed, which is very much in our cash flow plan going forward.

And my second question is on realization. So, is Ambuja still selling Penna and Sanghi brand? And is that the reason why per bag realization has dropped because there's a mix of now category B and C products? Is my understanding correct?

I will tell you; 2 things have happened. Number one, South markets also are very largely OPC- led markets. If you see traditional Ambuja ACC, they sell very high ratio of blended cements, largely trade segments. But if you go down south, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, many of these markets have a very strong OPC, which is B2B segments. So, the volume -- some of it has also gone in that segment, number one. Number two, the entire volume of Sanghi is in ACC and Ambuja. So, I don't think that's a worry. There's a cost is an issue. Whereas in south, the overall price player itself is depressed. I'm sure you've seen the results of all the companies who have announced south-based results. It already reflects the price which is depressed in that part. And 1 million of our sale is in south from Penna.

And sir, that is under Penna brand, right?

No, no, that is under Ambuja and ACC brand. But please understand if the overall market price is depressed there, so even if I sell Ambuja and ACC, while it will sell at the highest end of the market, but the market itself is depressed. That's why I asked you to look at the results which have announced of a few south companies, and you will see how much of price decline they have taken.

The next question comes from Jyoti Gupta from Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities.

This is in sequence to the question just asked, when we say north region and west have actually reported double-digit growth. And if I look at the market share in terms of presence per capacity, we should have actually taken benefit of the north and west region, the way UltraTech has taken, while UltraTech also has a pan-India presence and south despite being depressed, the EBITDA per tons have actually improved because of better realization. So, my worry is that we are seeing depletion in our realization per ton. Of course, with Penna and Sanghi gearing up to Ambuja brands, we might see but if this prolongs for another 1 quarter, maybe for us to actually command premiumization could be -- do you think could be a challenge? And I believe all your costs have actually been now accrued in the third quarter. So therefore, fourth quarter should look better -- on the per ton basis, the numbers in fourth quarter should be better off. And of course, volume, we will again see a very high-volume growth in fourth quarter. But if again, our realization per ton decreases, at least it should stabilize or be higher because we should again take benefit of the north and the central region if the southeast remains depressed. And 1 million ton in Penna is not such a big amount, I mean, compared to 15 million tons, 15 million what we have sold. I think that benefit should have come, which is not reflecting in the numbers? So

Yes. So, I think you have made -- you're asking me some questions, but more than that, you have made some comments. So, I'll not respond to your comments. I'll try to respond to your -- because I've already responded to most of the comments that you have made already. For your one statement you made, whether quarter 4 will look better, it's a forward-looking statement. I can only tell you that prices have increased in the December month and also, we are seeing the same trajectory in Jan, number one. We are in the process of stabilization of the new assets. 1.4 million tons out of 16.5 million tons is 11% growth. A large part of it coming from assets where the cost structures are higher. And I think that depresses the price. I also mentioned about B2B segments where we have to participate. Wherever our existing brands exist, we continue to be on the premium end. The share of premium products of the trade have seen the highest increase. And I think as a company, we are now nearing 27%. And that focus continues. So, I think in time to come, you will only see Ambuja ACC and the associate brands, whichever become part of the game, will only have a better price premium, will have better premium products, and you'll also see a much more improved EBITDA per ton going forward.

That will be great because I hope that fourth quarter is far better in terms of EBITDA per ton than what we have seen this quarter. And why don't we actually merge all these companies rather than looking at it on a stand-alone basis? That is my another comment, in fact, suggestion.

Already, we have announced one set of transactions to merge some entities, including Penna Cements, Adani Cementation and Sanghi. So, if you see out of all the entities, we've already announced 3 entities, which is currently under regulatory approval stage. We are very hopeful that in the next financial year, this whole transaction should get consummated, and you will have only limited entities going forward.

Two quick questions. Sir, how are you looking at the industry supply curve, incremental supply additions, say, for FY '25, '26, '27? The reason is more to understand from a pricing perspective, given there is so much of supply, how are you looking at the marketplace.

So, Ritesh, I would answer it in a little different way. Today, India is -- I think by the time we finish this current financial year, we will hit more like 450 million, 460 million demand and maybe closer to 700 million total capacities, of which the capacity which can produce cement would be 100 million tons lower. Now if India grows at about 8%, so 8% on 450 million or 500 million is close to 30 million tons, which basically means you need to add 2.5 million tons additional volume either from the existing, the base or add new capacity. I think at 300 per capita, India being the second largest market, GDP still sub $3,000, inching towards $5,000 in the next couple of years. All this will translate into more housing demand, more infra demand, which is largely led by government. And I think the commercial demand about 15%, all of them will have their own growth trajectory. The question is if the industry does not responsibly add new capacity today, which is totally private sector investments today and totally based on free competition, consumers will end up paying prices which will be much, much higher. So, I think it's in the interest of the nation that you build cement at a lower cost, you are able to produce cement at a lower cost. And the companies which are able to command brand premiums like the ones fortunate for me to run, Ambuja, ACC, which are top end, which command at least INR30 to INR40 premium over the category B, C players, I think this is a good place to be in. There will be times when demand supply does not match. Unfortunately, current year H1, the demand after growing a very healthy 7%, 8% for the first time went almost flattish. And that, alongside the new capacity creation, created a short-term sentiment pressure, which I believe will get adjusted because nobody will be able to manage the investments without requisite returns. And I think that's why the price situations will remain better in time to come.

Sir, that's helpful. But would it be possible for you to qualify what is the expected industry level additions that you are looking at internally? So, for '26, '27, based on our numbers, we are looking at 50 million tons plus and hence, the rate what you indicated at 8% won't be adequate to cover up for incremental supply, which puts some pressure on pricing profitability in the near term. So, is that fair? Or you're looking at it in a different view?

I'm sure when you do your models as part of your analyst reports, you don't put 100% capacity of any company in year 1, right? You ramp it up, if 50 million is coming, if you can take 40% to 50% coming in year 1, then you're already removing 25 million to 30 million, which will come most likely at different months during the period and full effect of that will come only over the next 2 years. So, I think that's what has happened in the past. That's what is going to happen in future also.

Sure. Sir, my second question was, how do you look at the industry cost curve? We have given a bold number of INR530. We are actually walking the talk over there. So one is, how do you see this cost curve for rest of the industry? Will we be on the left-hand side of the cost curve given the initiatives that we are taking, which puts possibly us on the pole position? And secondly, if one had to marry that with the lease expiries come 2030, how is Ambuja, ACC placed versus the rest of the industry? Will our cost curve inflation be lower than the rest of the industry, which will still ensure that we are better placed on the cost curve?

So, let me answer the first one, which is more to do with me. See, I cannot comment on whether I'll be in the pole position versus others. Every company, I'm sure, is working very hard. What we are doing, we have stated very clearly quarter after quarter in all our website posts of our analyst calls, I think you'll see this very clear number. There are clear initiatives, whether it is logistics, whether it is power and fuel, whether it's other fixed costs, whether it is brand building and marketing and whether it is going green. As I mentioned, we'll hit 83% green. That will reduce my power cost to INR3.50. And that's a substantial reduction from the current grid cost of INR8. Likewise, with own coal mines over the next couple of years, it takes time because many of the coal mines are underground mines. The coal cost itself will drop down, and it will take me out of the vagaries of day-to-day bidding and buying out in auction premiums. So, I think that I think INR500 is a very clear visibility because it's directly. Each initiative has an action, it has a capex, and it has an opex. What others will do, I cannot comment. I would continue to believe that in the next 5 years, Adani Cement would not just be the lowest cost in India, but perhaps it will compete with the lowest cost in China, which is the world, first part. Second part regarding 2030, yes, there are a few plants for us, which will have some residual limestone. They would be, in Maharashtra one plant, in Madhya Pradesh one plant, and I think mostly in Chhattisgarh one plant and in Himachal one plant. We are making a lot of initiatives, speaking with the government. IIndustry is also working through various forums, NITI Aayog, etcetera. A little early in the day to comment, but I think who knows. We might also get some respite from the government for that.

The next question comes from Sumangal Nevatia from Kotak Securities.

My first question is on the cost reduction target of INR3,650, INR3,700 over a few years. Is it possible to give some bridge or some road map as to what would be year 1 and then year 2, year 3, some rough numbers?

I think if I'm looking at, you can say about INR100 next year, another INR150 following year. And then I think a large part of the cost will come towards the end when coal mines start coming in. See there are other initiatives of waste heat, solar power, as I mentioned, Vinod mentioned, so 800 megawatts green will happen. The entire waste heat program will get over in the next 12 months. The entire alternate fuel journey will also get over in the next 24 months. The overall ramping up of newly acquired assets and bringing them at par with our structures will happen. Mind you, our number of locations, we'll add almost 40 new grinding units over the plan period when we hit 140 million, 150 million tons. With more units, the logistics cost of 100 kilometres that I mentioned, and each kilometre is PTPK INR4. So, if you take another INR100 from there, so I think a large part of it will come around 2026, '27. And the last piece would be the coal mines, captive coal mines. The years when they come, you suddenly see a drop of INR0.30, INR0.40 in the coal cost. And I think that's where you'll see a sizable savings.

But good thing is, Sumangal, that this will be progressive, like so every passing quarter, you will find the benefits of these investments yielding the savings on the cost, and we are going to be more highlighting it with each of the press releases. So, you will find the positive developments every passing quarter. Railways, Ajay ji highlighted that each quarter, we are getting at least 2 to 4 rakes. Then we are also getting new capacities of renewables with every quarter, WHRS, AFR. So, it is not back ended. It is going to be well laid out over the next 2, 3 years. But yes, major impact is when the coal mines will start giving the captive coal, that will be a game changer.

Understood, sir. Sir, and this is more at current commodity prices, right? Or we are also expecting some commodity price deflation, diesel price reduction or something of that sort?

I think there will be a standard inflation of 2% to 3% but we have seen over the last few years, both energy and fuel has been more stable. And also going forward, if globally green is the new norm, you will find a little bit of surplus availability of some of these fuels. So, I think -- I believe there will be less inflation on that count.

Understood. And just one last clarification on the capex. Next year, are we expecting the INR7,000 crores, INR8,000 crores kind of further increase or something on FY '26, if you can comment?

I think if you allow us to come back in the full year call, I can give you a much better idea because we would have finished current year. See, what the projects we are already building, which I announced already, that capex will anyway flow. As I also mentioned, there are about 10-12 grinding units for which active work is going on. That will also come in. So, while I have a number, but I'd rather wait for the financial year to get over, that's the right time for us to come and make a commentary in the next quarter. I hope you understand.

Ladies and gentlemen, we would take that as the last question for today. I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.

Yes. So, before we end, let me remind you that the playback of this event will be available on the company website in a short while. I hope most of the questions have been answered. If you have any unresolved queries, please contact us. Thank you, Parvez and Nuvama team for organizing this call. Thank you.

Thank you, all.

Thank you. On behalf of Ambuja Cements Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This transcript has been edited to improve readability Ambuja Cements Ltd Registered office: Adani Corporate House Shantigram, S.G. Highway Khodiyar, Ahmedabad – 382 421 Gujarat, India Ph +91 79-2555 5555; www.ambujacement.com; CIN: L26942GJ1981PLC004717