Thank you very much. The first question is from the line of Amit A nwani from PL Capital. Please go ahead.

My first question is on the improvement in RHODIUS and AWUKO. There is -- I remember last quarter, we actually slashed the volumes number there and kind of flattish guidance there. So just wanted to understand how is the capacity utili sation which is shaping up in these 2 businesses? And is our strategy on track? I remember when we acquired, we talked about cross-selling products, we talked about bringing technology here and raw material from India to supplying to these subsidiaries? And third thing, I wanted to understand what kind of volume growth we are factoring in for FY '25? And what actually very specifically led to the decline in the losses for 4Q?

Yes. I think when we talked last time itself, we have guided that RHODIUS may lower the losses than expected. This was the guidance that I shared last time, and that is how they are also performing. And AWUKO's loss are also coming down. This is what we communicated. As I said that we expect a 10% growth in RHODIUS and substantial growth. It's not right to consider growth of 60%, 50% because it may look so absurd for this one. But they have been growing at about EUR8 million to EUR9 million this year. And they can have a potential of getting to say EUR30 million. So we are looking at getting to about EUR17 million to EUR18 million this year. As I said, the strategy is to focus on wood and leather. Second is to get back to the 70 customers with whom we have dealt in the past, but they have moved away from AWUKO because of their challenges that AWUKO went through before our acquisition. Those customers we have reached out and we will be in a position to get back to them, strengthening of the marketing team, etcetera. And the focus on reducing the lead time, which was one of the major cause people have shifted. So we feel that these will help us to get back to a normalcy and I think as far as the synergy goes, I think I just shared with you is that we are trying to set up a 50 million thin wheel capacity, which we acquired from a company called DRONCO, which is similar to RHODIUS in Germany, which went bankrupt. But we did not acquire the company. We acquired the assets, technology and brand. We moved these assets as we speak in the last month and that, we will start setting this up using the RHODIUS technology. That is how the synergies will start playing out.

So how was the capacity utilisation, sir, in these 2 subsidiaries?

We have enough capacity to utilise.

Sure. Second question on ceramics business. You highlighted that we witnessed a high teen growth for ware ceramics and met cylinder and there were some issues, I think lesser customer offtake for ware ceramics and this year, we are guiding for almost, I think, 13%, 14% top line growth. So what kind of volume growth you are factoring in for ceramics in all these 3, 4 subsegments?

I don't want to get into the specifics of volume and price. Probably I would stay with whatever I guided there. But I think in the engineered ceramics space, we are getting back to normalcy. That is what I expected. There was drop last year because of 1 customer's delay. We are assuming that customer orders will continue to be the same, right? And that is the basic assumption. On top of that, we have confidence in getting the growth there because of some specific work that we have done in the last 18 months to get b ack to other areas, be it in devices and higher cylinder production as well as in terms of the defence. This will help us to get back to higher volumes in engineered ceramics. Wear ceramics and metallised cylinders are doing fine in the past and will continue to do also well in FY '25.

Sure. Lastly, sir, with the geopolitical situation, any disruptions we are facing with respect to supply to any area? That is my last question.

I'm not sure which political disturb ance you are telling. There are all around so many political disturbances happening. But I think we are continuing to navigate our business in compliance with many things and there are delays because of this Israel conflict and which I think every industry these days are facing. There is also an increase in logistics costs due to that. So those are, I would say that every industry, every business is facing today and everyone is trying to find the best possible alternate to overcome that. So we also continue to do that.

Next question is from the line of Sagar Gandhi from Invesco Mutual Fund.

Yes. Sir, my question is on this acquisition of DRONCO, which you mentioned. Can you please highlight what is the peak revenue that this company has done over the last 5 years? And if you can give some more details on this acquisition?

No. So first of all, I want to clarify, this is not an acquisition of a company. This is an acquisition of an asset, right. It has a capacity of 50 million thin wheel can be produced and we expect this could give about INR250 crores to INR300 crores of top line.

INR250 crores top line in rupee terms?

Yes, from FY '25 onwards.

I wish we have a magic wand to put all capacity just like that. But I told it will take 18 months to set up this facility itself. So I would expect this would start flowing in from FY '27 and probably late FY'26 onwards.

Okay. And sir, margin profile, anything there?

I would not guess at this stage.

Next question is from the line of Ravi Swaminathan from Avendus Spark.

So first question is Abrasives growth...

Sir, we're not able to hear you clearly.

I think you are on speaker, Ravi, can probably come out of the speaker, yes.

Yes. So with respect to the Abrasives business standalone, past couple of years has been in that 4% to 5% range. So is i t like the growth would have been slower because of industry growing and competition being higher or the entire industry itself being slow growth? If you can throw more light on terms of industry growth?

We have clarified this question earlier calls also is that industry has been growing well. No issues on the industry growth. It's just that we could not capture certain market share. This is what is our thing and I have a feel that it's largely a question of in select products, sele ct region, there are competition which have taken market share than us. Competition then organized competition like us. So there are definitely people who are either imported products and started selling or light manufacturing and started selling is what has taken place.

Okay and this year, the margins were very good at 17%. Is that kind of sustainable at an EBITDA, I'm asking with respect to a standalone Abrasive business?

Yes. So this is a combination of many things, as I described in my opening remarks, lot of that is a function of soft commodity prices happening. So I would expect there could be a small dip. I would say we should be able to maint ain that, but subject to many other things that would happen in this field. So you should factor in 50 bps dip to a 20 bps pickup.

Next question is from the line of Harshit Patel from Equirus Securities.

Sir, I missed your commen t on setting up the high -purity silicon carbide facility. If you could elaborate on this?

Yes. I think this facility is set up in Kerala. We will serve 2 markets. One is market is for serving the semiconductor industry where high -purity silicon carbide will be used. Second is in the technical ceramics field. So these are the 2 fields that we will be addressing. The capacity is capacity is 6 tons per month capacity is what we are setting this up. Of course, we will scale up depending on getting the capacity utilization, we will scale this up. We expect 18 months to set this up.

What kind of Capex it would require setting up these 6 tons per month?

So I don't want to share an exact Capex one. It is part of the number that we shared already as overall Capex number at this point, yes.

Understood. Sir, just a small follow -up to that. So what kind of reali sations this high -purity silicon carbide would have? Would it be 10x, 20x or maybe 50x of what the commodity silicon carbide that we are selling? So is this the right ballpark or it would be different than this?

I think at least, say, 20, 25x higher than the current reali sation. I would ready to share many things on this. Step 1 is from a lab; we have moved to establishing a plant. That's the first step. We are confident of setting this up. We are confident of establishing this prod uct because we have supplied a few from the lab level itself. So now we will have to then work in terms of getting to the next level, set this up, start working with the customers, and then we will share more details at that point.

Understood. My second question in on AWUKO and RHODIUS. In your opening remarks, you mentioned that the RHODIUS sales declined by 2% in FY '24 and AWUKO declined by close to 3%. Now what was the volume growth? I believe the prices would have declined so I believe the prices would have grown significantly, so the volumes must have declined at least in high single digits. So if you could give some flavour on the same?

See, honestly, AWUKO and all, it is too early to look at price, v olume, etcetera. As I said, we have enough and more to do there. I would rather focus in terms of increasing from the current EUR9 million to the next year about EUR17 million to EUR18 million. That's step one. That should be our focus. RHODIUS is also is that these are blips that happen based on the current demand-supply situation. We are getting back to 10% growth, which is more or less what they have done in 2022 or so. So it is very much doable, and I would wait to focus on price volume analysis on a company like this.

Sir, just lastly, on the standalone Electrominerals business, we have seen the deterioration in the margins in the last 2 to 3 quarters because of the Chinese dumping. So what are the steps we are taking to arrest this decl ine in the margins? And what could be the sustainable margins in this segment going forward? That would be my last question.

So I think the Electromineral margin this year, we did about 9.5% stand alone, right? And last year, we were at 14%. I would like to think, maintaining in the range of 9%, 9.5% is possible. and it should improve as this dumping will start reversing and I think we'll have to give some more quarters before this stops. There are quite a few steps that we are look ing at in terms of bringing our cost down, both in terms of productivity, sourcing and energy cost reduction. So these are the measures that we are trying to counter that. But I think in the initial phase, we are also parallelly trying to work with the government in terms of explaining to them to look at this antidumping measures. But it's a lengthy process, but I think these are the steps that we are taking.

Next question is from the line of Saif Sohrab Gujar from ICIC Prudential AMC.

Just on the Russian subsidiary, VAW. Can you just repeat the PAT amount in roubles and what would be in INR terms? And how much of that we have utili sed, say, for dividend taken to the standalone entity and reinvestment out of that, sir?

We said that: one, profit increased significantly to RUB1.6 billion, so it's roughly about INR145 crores to INR150 crores and we have a policy of taking 1/3 of this as a profit dividend, which will come to our holding company, not to the standalone.

But it will eventually flow to the standalone, right? So what I'm trying to understand on the cash flow part,

That will get used for servicing our debt for acquisition, etcetera, which we have already completed. That's why we said that all the debts are paid. Now we have an opportunity to reuse this for various purposes, including repatriating back to India.

Okay sure and my second question is on the dumping part but on the abrasive side. So similar thing just in terms of -- like for abrasive -- for Electrominerals you talked about taking up with the government. Are similar actions possible on the abrasive side? Or these imports have been there always, so there is no scope there?

No, no. I think there are similar possibility exists in abrasives, which we have done effectively along with the people in the industry. While the Ministry of Commerce recom mended for a dumping, Ministry of Finance did not agree to this. We have gone for an appeal against that.

Next question is from the line of Bhoomika Nair from DAM Capital.

Yes. Sir, on the EMD segment now. On a standalone basis, we are broadly around 20%, 25% is a specialty EMD. How do you see that changing over the next 3, 4 years as this high -purity silicon facility is commissioned?

Bhoomika, I think I just want to clarify a few things, which I will do now, is that we are at about 11% to 12% is our specialty material compared to the regular one. That's number one. It's not at 25%. The second is that our aim, yes, we are expecting by 2030, we will get to 75%-25% is what is our current program that we will take us.

Understood. So sir, when this shift happens where you will probably, as you said, sometime move towards 25% kind of specialty business. How is the margin profile shift? Will it remain around this 9%, 10% kind of a range? Or do you think it will settle more towards 14%, 15% per se?

Yes. So let me give a colour. So the core product that we are talking is WFA brown fused semi- friable silicon carbide is our core product. The specialties that we are looking at is Alumina Zirconia zirmol thermal spray products, sol -gel, zirconia are the specialty one and the transformational, which is HPSIC and graphene and silicon nitride. These are the 3 that we are looking at as a transformation. So let's put these 2 together as core and specialty in a very a simplistic sense, right? So we expect this would take the contributions up at least by 10% to 15% higher is what is our expectation in this mix change because you will move from currently, let's say, 89-11 to 75-25 in this mix. So definitely, the PBIT profile would go up. Now I don't want to hazard a guess at this point. but I think it would definitely give a greater push in terms of moving the PBIT margin up.

Understood. Sir, similarly, in terms of high -purity silicon, we were also looking at launching this product in Russia. So is that also being set up in Russia where the existing facility is being shifted towards that? Are we looking at adding capacity there? Because Rus sia also is running at a fairly high utili sation. So would it be more of a value growth out there with a very small marginal volume growth? And if you can just touch upon the high purity in that market as well?

So right now, our focus is set this up in Cochin. We are not looking at setting up this in Russia. So that's the point one I want to clarify. We want to get some stability there geopolitical -wise before we get to further investments there.

Okay, okay. And from a VAW perspective, what will drive growth because, I mean, utilisations are already very high? So can we expect like a 10%, 15% kind of growth possible out there? Or will it be more subdued because of the higher utilisation?

It will be more subdued because of high utilisation. As I said, that we are taking a very, very -- 2% to 3% growth rate. Under the current circumstances, it's not right to go anything beyond at this point in time. Let's look at how the things change. Based on that, we can do that. There are pockets of growth possible, higher refractory growth, higher abrasives growth in VAW, which is definitely we are working on and those can give us some headroom and also the relationship between India and Russia in terms of making use of their refractory products into India, we are strongly exploring that. That is another area of growth that we are looking at.

Okay. Okay. Sir, and just one last thing on the high -purity silicon in India. You said that it's moving from the lab basis to the plant aspect of it. Do we have some client tie -ups out or your anchor clients for our offtake once the plant is operational, say, 18-odd months later?

Yes, yes. That's a good question. We have clearly an anchor customer in silicon carbide for our ceramic business because they will get into preparing themselves into serving semiconductor - based ceramics, defense side of ceramics, electronic-based ceramics. All these will requires the HPSIC material and that is what they would get into that. So clearly, these 2 capacities are tied up, and that is for a clear anchor customer within us, we will have that. Now outside of the anchor customer for the semiconductor use, we will start. we are just seeing this supplying to a few customers for them to use the product and accept this, which will take time. But definitely, we have more than 50 percentage of the production, we will have an internal tie-up.

Next question is from the line of Alok Ranjan from 360 One Asset Management Company.

So power transmission exposure for ceramics segment, my guess is about, say, 18% to 20%.

And sir, given the commentary, which is not only restricted to India but on a global level also. Can we assume that although we have guided for the ceramics business growth to be in the range of 12% to 14%, but this must be growing at a rate higher than 20%- 25%?

Yes. I think there are subsegments, which I think metalli sed cylinders, which goes into the medium voltage, which is what I also mentioned, is on a higher trajectory, I agree.

Got it. And sir, second question, if you can help me understand regarding this high-purity silicon carbide. Can you just help me understand the value chain like who will be the customer for us? And also, given the kind of semiconductor-related Capex being announced by Tata in terms of 50,000 wafer capacity, what could be the other opportunity which Carborundum can think to participate?

So the high-purity silicon carbide would get used, as I said, we are looking at 2 broad areas of application: one is in the semiconductor; the other one is in the technical ceramics. Technical ceramics is basically, as I said, ceramics that would get used in semiconductor equipment, which is a very large space, which we can look at it. The second area is in the electronics, EV vehicles and also the areas of defense. All these areas would require high -purity silicon carbide, largely on the industrial ceramics application is concerned. The second application goes is i n the silicon carbide -based wafer manufacturers would require the HPSIC material. So these are the 2 sets of things. As far as the data semiconductor that you just mentioned, they are based on silicon-based semiconductor fabs.

Got it. Got it. Sir, just 1 clarification here. Given that we are putting up a capacity closer to 6 tons per month, what could be the typical size of a global market? And whether this capacity is initially to start with since we are moving from lab to plant scale. And in terms of the runway, it could be much, much higher? How to think about it, sir, the growth journey here?

So I think the growth journey, we are putting up a reasonable capacity because 6 tons per month. So definitely , it is a decent capacity. Head rooms are definitely there . After establishing definitely we'll be in a position to take a relook at this. Second is that we had to focus, as I said, we are just not focusing only on the semiconductor. We are also focused on the ceramic application, which I think since it's going to be integrated in our own value chain, we'll be more keen to look at it that way.

Got it. Sir, last question. We are seeing commodities are moving up again. So like alumina prices have moved up from $378 kind of per ton to more than $400. So it's around 8% sharp move that we are seeing. How does that impact our Electrominerals business this movement, which we have seen in alumina?

Next question is from the line of Bhavin Vithlani from SBI Mutual Fund.

Congratulations for a good set of numbers. Sir, actually, first is some data -related questions. I missed the numbers of AWUKO and RHODIUS. If you could just help me wi th full year revenues, EBITDA and PAT for RHODIUS? That will be helpful. And the guidance that you gave of incremental EUR8 million, EUR9 million, I just got a little confused. Can you help me again on the guidance front?

Let me take my notes paper. So AWUKO, as I said, I think it's a full year EUR9.13 million sales. And the loss after tax was EUR2.3 million. Now last year's loss after tax was EUR3.7 million, that is FY '23. RHODIUS, I mentioned EUR63.3 million is the top line and the full year basis, the loss after tax was EUR1.5 million compared to EUR3.7 million of the last year, FY '23.

Sure. So in terms of guidance, what are we guiding individually on revenues and margins' front for AWUKO and RHODIUS in '25?

So RHODIUS, as I said, we will grow by 10% more higher growth, and we will make a small profit and AWUKO, we said that we'll go up by EUR8 million to EUR10 million than the current numbers and we are looking at an EBITDA breakeven there.

Sure. And so was RHODIUS' EBITDA positive in '23 given that it was a small loss?

No, no. EBITDA positive, RHODIUS is EBITDA positive and I said, in fact, even at the current one, if I take the PPA out of EUR2.8 billion, it is equivalent to a profit of EUR1 million at the PBT level.

I understand. Sir, the second question is on the Ceramics division, wherein you highlighted that the year gone by, we had mid -teens growth in ware Ceramics and Refractories. It's the Engineered Ceramics which declined. So what was the decline in the Engineered Ceramics last year and going forward as the customer which postponed, which you believe, will come back? Then the growth th at you're guiding for 11% to 13% seems lower than you guided in the past calls of 20% to 25% growth you are anticipating for the Ceramics division?

Yes. There are 3 sub-segments - industrial ceramics, ware engineered and metallised cylinders. Sum of all these 3 put together, we are flat compared to FY '23 to FY '24. We are not sharing individually their sub elements and their growth. We feel that the Engineered Ceramics growth that we are looking at the next year, considers a similar sales of last year from the customer that we had a shortfall and we have picked up higher sales on certain select segments like night vision lamps, defense industry and few other devices' customers, which helps us to get to the growth back. So hence, we are gaining growth at this point in time. Overall growth rate that we are looking at and on the refractory, again, there are 2 broad sub -segments, which is basically -- so 3 broad segments, fired, monolithic and composites put together. These are the 3 subsegments there. They have grown substantially well last year, and we are expecting a similar performance to continue in the next year. Earlier, you were telling that you guided us 20%, now you are saying 13% to 15% and I would like to be conservative here and exceed rather than tell something and come below that.

I appreciate that. Just 1 more question on the SOFC customer where there was a changeover in the model and hence, there was a deferment of the sales. Are you getting -- I mean, is there something more than just a changeover in the model where they are running off the older inventory than the demand impact that your discussions with the customers suggest? And is that -- I mean, are you seeing that the growth can come back on a 3 -year basis, not talking we not expecting on 1 or 2 quarters that we have expected?

Absolutely. so we told, I think last call itself, I did clarify, there is a model change is one reason. The other one is their business in South Korea also went down and hence, it affected. They got back to the South Korea orders from Q4 of calendar year FY '25, which is what I did mention in the last call. So we feel that, as you rightly said, in a 3 -year time frame to come, they will get back to higher growth rate and I think it's a very strong customer. They are doing fine in their own business and they should be back.

So on the EMD and high-purity SiC, our capacity of 6 tons per month, if you could just help us with what would it be versus the global demand totally? I mean, I just want know what could be our share in the market once our capacities get commissioned?

I think I tried to answer this in the earlier question also is that, see, these are niche demands globally. We feel that what we have kept as a capacity to start with is a decent capacity to get in and once we establish, it will give us a reasonable share. So I feel that we would be able to share this more once we establish, start doing that, we will be able to come back to you and share. But I think it's a reasonable size to start at 6 tons a month.

Sure. I'm sorry to hop on this again, would our capacity be like sub-5% of the world demand? I mean, we want to know the headroom that the kind of...

There will be enough headroom...

Great. Just last part of it, in t he EMD historically, we have been working on a certain battery - related materials like graphene and high-purity graphite. Any progress on that? And if you could just give us some colour on that would be helpful?

Yes. I think in the las t call, I did clarify these 2 points very well. and about our intentions, etcetera. But to start with, let me get to the graphene again. And see, I feel that we are focusing as far as graphene is concerned, on 3 broad areas and one is in terms of auto detailing, the other one is the bio pack. The third one is the super capacitor application. Fourth and fifth, work is on, which is on the cement and tires, many usual -- going through the rubber mark. So these are the 5 areas that we are looking at. Of these 3, we will take it up, and that is how we are gettin g to the next step. As far as the graphite is concerned, we have clarified in the last call is that it takes a long time. We need to establish our synthetic graphite facility, which I think will take time. I would get back to you as and when we establish and we have a path forward, we will then share. At this point in time, as I said, the HPSIC and graphene is the 2. And these are the 5 areas that we will focus on graphene of these 3, we have a clearly laid part, which will take it forward.

Sure. Appreciate this. Last question, if I may. So we have seen the pollution control board have laid a significant penalties on the tire companies and that now there is a mandate for them to recycle. So do we have any products or solutions which can help them on this recycling part?

Yes. I think this is one area where we are focusing on is how by adding graphene, we get back to similar to virgin rubber, from a retraded or reused material, is the work that currently we are working on. As we start establishing, as we start progressing well technically. We have done technical work in terms of few people associated with us and some universities outside of India. Would get back to you in a specific one as and when we have a good path forward. But as I said, it's 1 of the 5 areas of our focus.

Next question is from the line of Tarang Agrawal from Old Bridge AMC.

A couple of questions. One on the India business. If I look at FY '24, the Abrasives and the Ceramics segment has grown by about 4% to 5%, right? And the outlook for FY '25 seems to suggest that you all are baking in anywhere between 10% to 12% for the India business. Are you seeing increased level of activity overall from a market perspective? Or d o you think it's going to be a function of everything that you mentioned, so it will be more micro rather than market led? And second, the 4% to 5% growth that we witnessed in FY '24 . Is there a way to probably comment whether we have lost market share or where we are because that number seems to be a bit soft? And the third on VAW, what percentage of, if you could give us a segmental split of VAW between Electromineral, ceramics and abrasives?

I think. so as far as the growth for FY '25 is concerned, I think let's split this into 2 elements, ceramics and abrasives, which is what your question is. So ceramics, I think, largely, 2 broad components, industrial ceramic and refractory are the 2 subcomponents in that. Refractory grew 20% plus, but we have a challenge on the Industrial Ceramics, which was flat, largely because of the engineered ceramic business, which we talked in a few questions earlier and how we think that we will get back to higher growth rate, we exp lained this clearly. So it has nothing to do with the market one like, as in your own words, it's a micro-management of the business, and we will get there. So that is how the growth path of 5%, 6% this year to guided higher percentage the reason for ceramic side. Abrasives, similar explanation. It is not the market, which is, I think market is there, market is growing. In a way you have mentioned that does it mean you have lost market share? Yes, in some specific pockets, yes, we have lost, we have to get back. That is a program that I described also what we will do in abrasives to get back this. As far as VAW is conce rned, it's predominantly Electromineral business. I would not like to share the individual segments, but this is the broad guidance I can give.

It's a predominantly Electromineral business.

Next question is from the line of Amar from Lucky Invest.

My question has been answered.

Next question is from the line of Mohit Pandey from Macquarie Capital.

Sir, on the high-purity silicon carbide, so firstly, India business, but what are the commissioning time lines for the plant being set up? And secondly, in earlier calls, I think you used to mention about a certain level of purity that you are looking to achieve, like 99.999%. So is it fair to assume that, that has been achieved now? Yes.

I think we are looking at a fine purity, which we have established, it would take 18 months to set up this plant.

Okay, sir. And is there work also ongoing on further and levels of purity being targeted? Or...

No. I think in this method of manufacturing; we have probably the best.

Understood. Sir, and secondly, on abrasives domestic margins. So are there apart from softer raw material prices, what would be the self -help measures like cost controls, etcetera, contributing to the margin expansion, if you could give some sense around that as well?

Yes, I think there are 3 or 4 drivers which we described. One is the commodity, the other one is product mix, the third one is the cost measures and the fourth one is some of the price improvements that we put up in the select areas.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question of the day. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Bhoomika Nair for closing comments. Over to you, ma'am.

Yes. Thank you very much for giving us an opportunity to host the call, sir. Wishing you all the very best, and thanks to all the participants. Sir, any closing remarks from your end, sir?

I think, I, first of all, thank DAM Capital for hosting this conference. I would like to summarise and leave a few thoughts here is that we have quite a decent volume growth in most of the business segments that we have. And we have clearly done an excellent performance in terms of the profitability. The profit growth is very good. PAT ratio is at 10% plus. Cash conversion is good at 86%, and it continues to be a Zero debt company. Good balance sheet and the companies that we acquired are started performing well, both at RHODIUS and AWUKO, it is on the trajectory of the right growth. We have done a good job in terms of reorganising and strengthening the leadership team at various levels. And we are currently working on a long-term strategy and a vision going up to 2030. So summary is that a good base business, trajectory of growth identified, lead ership team is in place, we are working towards getting to the next level of the growth path. So that's probably the summary I would like to leave.

Thank you on behalf of DAM Capital Advisors Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.