Cohance Lifesciences Limited analyst Q&A

Thank you very much. We will now begin the question-and-answer session. First question is from the line of Avnish Burman from Vaikarya. Please go ahead.

Good evening. Thanks for taking my question. My question is specifically on the Pharma CDMO side. The APIs that you would be making for innovator Big Pharma companies, I wanted to know whether you are exporting these APIs into facilities in the U.S.? Or are they majorly being exported into some European countries like Ireland and the formulation is happening there? So which is the major export country for your APIs under the Pharma CDMO?

Thanks for your question. A major portion of this is going to Europe.

Okay. This is regarding the tariffs. My understanding is that APIs do not come under the definition of pharmaceutical as defined by Section 232 investigations. Is this understanding correct that APIs that are being imported into the U.S. are getting tariff as of now?

We don't make APIs, we do intermediates, and they are right now not part of the tariffs that are being talked about. As far as we are aware, Pharma is exempt. And right now, we are exempt from any tariff discussions.

Okay. So right now, whatever intermediates you are producing, you are exempt. But are you exporting any of these intermediates into U.S.? Or is everything going into Europe?

Predominantly Europe.

Okay. Just one more question. This is a hypothetical one. Let's see tomorrow, something comes out of the Section 232 investigation and there is a tariff number that is being suggested. Is there an agreement or an understanding on how will it get passed on in the supply chain, whether your customer will bear it or whether you will have to bear a part of it? Is there some color on that?

Most of our current agreements with the customers are on FOB basis. We do not have the liability to pay the tariffs, when the goods reach the shore of U.S. So hopefully, that addresses the query that you have on the hypothetical question, if Pharma were to get tariff.

It does Himanshu, thank you so much.

Thank you. Next question is from the line of Dhawal Khut from Jefferies. Please go ahead.

We have been investing into building teams and building talent. So wanted to know what is our current BD team strength, especially overseas? And where are these teams located? And what is the future plan? Do we still see a lot of aggressive hiring within these teams? That's the first question.

Dhawal, thanks for your question. Yes, you are right, we have been investing in our front-end capabilities in all 3 major markets, U.S., Europe and Japan, Southeast Asia. So today, in North America, we have 4 PDs. These are all experienced CDMOs, several of them are PhDs that we have hired in the last 9 months or so. They are based in the East Coast and West Coast. We also have added a resource, a very experienced ex-pharma executive in Europe as well as 1 very seasoned executive to the Japanese market. Now in addition to that, NJ Bio also comes with it many capabilities. So we have ADC specialists and they have 2 PD resources essentially that are focused on ADCs. We also have our Sapala resources. So they have a few resources in Japan as well as one resource based in India that travels. So a combination of all of them is about 10 resources, 11 resources, that are really helping us build brand and then growing customer relationships and integrating with customers. I just wanted to clarify this is pure CDMO business, right? Yes, in addition to that API Plus has its own separate, Specialty Chem has its own separate team.

Do you think we have the right team sizes? Or you think there is some room to augment it further on the CDMO side?

It's not about quantity. I think it's the quality of people that we are focused on. So I think U.S., we will announce some more people, I think as time progresses to really add to people with some unique experiences as well as unique capabilities. But I am actually very excited about this Customer Advisory Board that we have really engaged with. These are very experienced people. So with the combination of Customer Advisory Board, our PG team, and with Yann coming in, and several of us really putting a lot of time on front end. I am very excited, I think, with the teams that we have. And this is a process of evolution. You may add 1 or 2 resources here and there, but we are not looking for major expansion in the quantity of team. We may add 1 or 2 people if required, but there's no major expansion plans there. There's a lot to be done with the team that we have, and we are excited I think with the potential. CPHI is coming. We are already blocking our calendar, sort of meetings are lined up. Other events are coming. This comes back in the U.S. in a few weeks. So the team is really excited. There is lot of effort going on with the existing teams. We feel the need. We will be happy to even bring some specialist people, in order to help us accelerate the growth.

It was helpful. Secondly, there are many payloads, where our payloads are going to other global CDMOs. So in those cases, does the end innovator know where is the payload coming from? Or is it completely at the discretion of the global CDMO, where the payload and linker is coming? Or the innovator is just informed about it. But again, the final decision is with the CDMO or is it the other way, where the innovator mandates the CDMO to use payloads from certain manufacturer. How does that supply chain and decision-making work?

Dhawal, that's a very good question. Final decision is fully with the innovator, and innovator is fully aware and is part of the decision-making process on selection of the products that we supply. And our product is a key part of the end-to-end supply chain that is required for the end molecule that the customer has presented. As recent as a few months ago, I personally met the end customer, the final customer. So yes, they are fully integrated, and they are fully aware, and they are fully involved with us in the decision-making process, and the future plans for that product and the other products they might want to launch that's required that material or a similar material.

Got it. One last bit. As a firm, do you think mAB manufacturing or antibody manufacturing looks an area that we would like to explore if any inorganic opportunity comes up or whatever, even trying to build it organically? Or you want to focus within the peptide/small molecule space? And other key commissioning, which are highlighted within the PPT?

Yes, Dhaval, we are a customer-centric organization. Our focus is to grow with customer and invest with customers. Even the investments we have announced are very customer focused in terms of where the customer needs it and where customer is growing. Our discussions with customers have reflected that they want to control the enough supplies, they have enough resources, they want to do it themselves. From our perspective, the lens that we go with, we haven't seen much need and desire actually for customer to really partner with us on that space, you know, the customers that we work with. And in the capabilities that we have invested in, whether it is the small molecule CDMO, whether it is oligo or the ADC, we see a lot of potential to really grow, a lot of pipeline discussions, a lot of early stage discussions that can move to advanced stages. So, we want to remain focused immediately in those spaces and then penetrate deep and expand and extend our relationship with customers. Right now, we are not looking any math capabilities to acquire.

Next question is from the line of Harith Ahamed from Avendus Spark. Please go ahead.

Good evening. Thanks for the opportunity. My first question is on the de-stocking which you alluded to. Is this specific to a particular product or one or two products? Or are you referring to a de-stocking situation which is more general across the portfolio?

The de-stocking that you referred to is specific to few products. I think we had mentioned it earlier as well. Just mentioned, it is related to two large commercial molecules that we are experiencing the de-stocking right now.

And the second one is on this new expansion that you announced at Nacharam facility for oligonucleotides. So, just trying to understand how exactly this expansion enhances our offering on the oligo side. What exactly are we capable of supplying now versus what will be our enhanced capability going forward post the expansion?

Our starting point of oligo is predominantly research-driven. And the important requirement for us is to abilities to have cGMP capabilities. That is where we have started looking at it. We also have mapped what could be the potential sub-segment of these modalities where needs immediate scale up based on the customer interest. And we have figured out nucleosides is one modality sub-segment they are looking for. Locked Nucleic Acid, not many companies in the world can actually make it to the extent of purity what we make. These are all the few decision drivers which have actually triggered for creating a GMP capability. And we are pretty sure with the customer interest what we have received, we should definitely be able to expand our R&D capability to a cGMP level of manufacturing. After then, there is also a logical extension. And we have clearly laid down our internal thinking process as well. This is the first step of our business progression. And once we lock in some of the customers, we also have a further capacity expansion to make the final oligonucleotide at scale. So, this is the broad plan that we have, which cannot happen unless you have a multi-kilo level cGMP manufacturing capability. Last but not least, it is also important to understand these capabilities have to exist in a regulatory approved plant. This particular block is coming in in a USFDA approved site, so, which gives the comfort for the innovator companies to come and qualify us. I hope this answers your question, Harith.

Yes, sir. That is helpful. And then the last one is on the expansion at NJ Bio. Your release talks about post this expansion, supplying Phase 1 to clinical quantities. But when I look at our payload capabilities, we already supply at commercial scale. So, how should we think about further enhancing our bioconjugation capabilities to commercial scale?

So, Harith, you know, at NJ Bio, as we move, we are adding capacity on conjugation suites. As part of acquisition of NJ Bio, we also have facility available very close to Princeton and NJ Bio, which can be converted at a very fast pace to build commercial capability. And as customer progresses, as I said, we are investing behind customers. As customer makes progress on the molecules, let there go, we can convert the facility. It is actually a semi-built facility that is already ready in a pharma park with lot of basic infrastructure. The time to make this existing site to a commercial is very fast. However, we are investing where the customer needed and with this customer that we are working and the others that we are talking to. As the molecule progresses from the stage that we are working, if we see the need, we have plans ready that we can very quickly expand into commercial capability and then work accordingly. Right now our focus is to really finish this site quickly and then take the molecules forward and deliver on what we had and then see the readouts and then accordingly invest capital behind our customer growth.

Understood, sir. Thanks for taking my questions.

Next question is from the line of Shyam Srinivasan from Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead.

Just one question was on the 1Q performance and relative to what the Fiscal '26 outlook is. Sir, margins have come in lower, and even if you adjust for the one-off expenses, 23%-24%, you've guarded for a low 30% kind of margin. So, what gives us confidence? You also mentioned about these de-stocking. I presume it is in CDMO. Just want to understand how should the rest of the quarters pan out and what gives us the confidence of the guidance for Fiscal '26 remains intact?

As mentioned during the call, we have reiterated our guidance both for FY '26 and more importantly for the FY '30 or 2030, $1 billion. So, we remain committed to delivering the $1 billion, INR 85 billion in 2030. If you notice, we have kind of carved out the impact of the destocking molecules. And as we know that CDMO business has these peaks and troughs. And we had called out that there are two commercial molecules where we are experiencing de- stocking. If you isolate that, and if you peel the onion, you realize that pharma CDMO has grown at around 30% and all three engines are actually firing. Because you look at spec chem, it is growing at 28%, API has grown at 90%. So, while we have always maintained that this is a business which we should not look at quarter-to-quarter, and that is what I will stay firm with you as well. We should not interpret anything from a quarter-to-quarter business. I think the most important thing that we have also called out during the quarter is the contribution coming from the niche technologies. And we have mentioned that the niche technology share of the total revenue has steadily grown from mid-teens in last year to early 20s. And we are expecting it to be mid-20s as we end FY '26. I think that should also give us confidence of how the niche technologies, which is where we are building a platform, and we are calling that out very categorically for 2030, is growing. So, I believe that we remain firm on our 2030 guidance of $1 billion, as well as mid- EBITDA, which we have called out.

Himanshu, thank you for that, but I was more looking at '26 only. So, if you could just rehash and tell us what the current year guidance only is because maybe there are some confusion on the previous call. So, what are we calling for organic growth for Fiscal '26, full-year? And what is the margin levels that we are expecting for full-year Fiscal '26?

Shyam, thank you for this question because it helps me clarify our position very clearly. So, see, for us, the organic and inorganic are two sides of the same coin. It is about capital allocation. And I think as an organization, we do believe, we have created this platform in the last 5 years, based on a mix of organic and inorganic. So, that is the way we have been. And we do believe that we have the secret sauce of integrating first finding out, leveraging those assets, buying them, and then integrating to create a niche technology platform. That is what we have been doing. So, for us, inorganic growth is a core part of our thesis. And you will see that we continue to add value-accretive, high-quality businesses. I think we should consider this as an appropriate use of our capital to acquire capabilities, geographical presences, as well as customer versus other organic model of doing CAPEX and building the same over a longer period of time. For us, inorganic is a way to scale up business, and ultimately, the investment in CAPEX will yield the right results for us. So, I would urge you guys to kind of think about it in the way we look at and not separating it as an organic or inorganic. It is just a capital allocation philosophy. And maybe our philosophy may be slightly different in the way we run our business.

Next question is from the line of Abdulkader Puranwala from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.

So, my first question is with regards to the opening remarks on your interaction with the Japanese customer. So, where are we in this discussion now? And do we have any visibility of certain onboarding of certain plans or certain new projects coming in, in the near term?

Thank you so much for your question. Our relationship is very strong. We are heavily committed to that part of the world. We have a full-time, very experienced, dedicated resource just for the CDMO business in addition to the Oligo resources and actually all different parts of the businesses that we have, all three engines. Actually, that is a very unique thing. CDMO, API, specialty chem, ADC, and Oligo. All five of them are seeing interaction from Japan area. This recent trip that I did, we met with a lot of existing customers, a lot of new customers along with actually Dr. Naresh and also we met with some very large innovators and had very exciting meetings. I am happy to share Dr. Naresh is actually going back again because customers want to see him and discuss some of the important things. So, in addition to existing relationship, we have actually onboarded a new customer, which I talked about in my opening remark. It is also from Japan on a CDMO. That is a commercial molecule. That tech transfer is going on. That is scaling. And we are expected to reach its full potential at least based on our projection the next year, year-and-a-half timeframe, right? So, that is happening. On the spec chem, actually, we have onboarded a Japanese customer last quarter, and we are doing a very early phase work with them, and that is looking very, very promising. So, we have multiple relationships with Japan. We continue to invest time, and I am personally committed to see a lot of growth coming from that area. The relationship with customers is very strong. And we are excited, I think, with the potential with existing products with same customers, with new products with the same customers and the new customer pipeline that we are developing in that area.

And just one more on your API business. How does this fit into the entire scheme of things when we are approaching innovators and at the same time we have this generic business? So, what is the perception that the innovators would have when we are into a generic kind of a business or a business model?

Thank you for this question to clarify ourselves. The very fact that we have defined our thesis for API+ is not to compete with the innovator companies on Paragraph IV filings. It is more of a matured product with a deeper cost leadership position by securing global capacity where we can gain a market leadership position. Those are all the products that we always play. On the contrary, you must have followed our commentary in the early part of our con call where we mentioned one of the branded products was qualified by the innovator company which API belongs to them? So, what it implies is we become a lifecycle management solution providers for the innovator companies for their matured molecules. In fact, it actually complements our strategy of CDMO by complementing our overall skill set about API. As you understand, the skill set and the regulatory environment that is required for making intermediate to API is completely different. So, we have that unique competency and that complements and propels the growth of both the engines of CDMO as well as API+. Vivek, you want to add something?

No, I think you complemented. So, we are seeing good traction, Abdul, just in addition to the one that Dr. Prasada talked. I actually had a discussion with a different customer recently and they were looking at different businesses and when they looked at our products, they were very excited and they immediately started inquiring about two APIs that we do because they are securing it from a very high cost area and the immediate inquiry was, can we work with you guys.. I personally see it is very complementary. It is helping our customers and the innovators actually optimize their costs, accelerate their speed, and then even have alternate sources in certain places.

And so, final one is for me. So, your capacity expansion at NJ and Sapala, so when does that come on board? And when you talk about the niche specialties scaling up to, say, 25%, is that going to be driven by the new capacities for your building block?

So, the expansion of Oligo site at our Nacharam site is actually in late stages of construction. We expect some validation and other things to happen next quarter. And I think by the end of this calendar year, we should have it live. We are actually already having some active discussions with customers to really bring some products there. ADC sites, the work has already started. And the timeline for that could be early calendar next year, somewhere at that time frame. A lot depends on, I think, some of the other factors there. But we are aggressively pursuing and trying to force the contractors to finish it before the end of fiscal year. So, we should see some traction this year. Our hope is that on both of them, we are having active discussions. We should see, sign up some contracts. But next year, we will see a full-fledged impact of those sites.

Thank you for answering my questions.

Next question is from the line of Chirag Shah from White Pine Investments Management. Please go ahead.

The first question I have is this one-time expenses that we have, when can we expect them to not appear in P&L because the way I look at it, the more we do M&A, the more this one-time will keep on coming. So, if you can throw some light on this one- time expenses that you classify, is this the last year assuming there are no further M&A or is there a last quarter? That is one because that is a significant part of our EBITDA bridge. That is why I am asking.

For us, what we do is we classify the non-operating related expenditure into the one- time expenses. The nature of business is such that we have an employee ESOPs and that we categorize as one-time expenses or these appear as whatever you wish to call them, these are the adjustments that appear there, right? For us in the current quarter, we have also incurred certain professional and legal services, which is associated with talent acquisition and contractual compliances. Now, these are actually part of our ongoing commitment to secure top talent and protecting company’s intellectual property as well as competitive positions. In auditor's view, this was considered as a one-time expenses and it was classified as such. So, that is what they are pertaining to this quarter. I think it is very difficult for me to answer a question about when they can disappear. I mean, I would be as interested as you that they disappear. But that is the correct nature of the business.

Because in '24 we had the reasonable amount. In '25, we had a reasonable amount of one-time. And your EBITDA bridge really changes simply because of this number. I understand Forex is a different thing altogether and I appreciate that. So, that is one. Second question is just again coming back to F'26 outlook. The way to look at this is there has to be a significant ramp up in H2 CDMO for us to have a 30% kind of margin given the way that Q1 has played out. Is this the right understanding or assumption for us to be closer to 30% margin, H2 has to be a significant ramp up in pharma CDMO? And a related question is, this 30% adjusted growth in pharma CDMO you called out, any indication from customer by when this inventory de-stocking will get over or at what stage they are? Because that...

Chirag, I think two points. One, we have reiterated our guidance for FY '26. Number two, we have commented that we are a long-term business. We are investing in the business to deliver a $1 billion by 2030 and mid-30s EBITDA. I think that is the guidance we would want you to look into and consider. As far as destocking is concerned, allow me to finish my second part of the question. As far as destocking of the commercial molecules is concerned, we had mentioned that it is a year phenomenon. At Quarter 1, it is very difficult for the customer to share any appreciation more than what they have shared at this stage.

This is helpful.

Next question is from the line of Vivek Agarwal from Citigroup. Please go ahead.

The question is related to API supply contract that you got for a branded product. You have mentioned in the opening remarks. So, just want to understand what kind of the product it is, and what is the overall market size of that product at an innovator level, and from your end, when you can commercialize that product?

It is a commercial product for us in that we are not making for customers. Based on our experience of making this product with long-term stability and our proven track record, customers actually qualified us, which enables us to increase our market share from what it is now to a substantial level. At this stage, we can share up to this extent. We will definitely be the dominant market player for this particular product with this new addition of the innovator as a lifecycle management solution. We can be one of the largest in the globe for this molecule.

So, already commercial for the innovators, and they have been sourcing from one of the European counterpart. Because of their strategic change, they are looking for a long-term sustainable partner outside of Europe. That is how, it is a long process. It took almost six quarters’ time to reach to the stage what we are talking about. Otherwise, it is a fully, fully commercial product for the innovator under their own brand.

And what would be the overall market size of the product at an innovator level?

It is difficult to put that number attached to it right now.

No problem at all. Just one more question around this destocking. It is quite common in the CDMO business, right? So, is it possible for you to highlight what is the reason for the destocking by the innovator? And is it possible you can see some kind of a ramp up in the coming quarters from these couple of molecules?

I think it is a customer specific point which is there. I am assuming that it would be a function of many subjects including inventory management and the commercial demand from their side.

So, for these two products, whatever supplies that you made in this particular quarter, so these are likely to remain more or less similar for the rest of the year. Is it the right way to look at?

Sorry, Vivek, your voice is not clear for us. Could you please repeat the question?

No problem, I will take it from Cyndrella later.

Next question is from the line of Dhawal Khut from Jefferies. Please go ahead.

On the 2030 guidance, which is a $1 billion, how much you think the current platform can get you up to? Very, very, very ballpark because, let's say, in Fiscal '25, we were at almost $335 million and we need to reach $1 billion. So, that is almost a gap of $660 million. So, how much of this delta can the current platform bridge? I won't hold on to those numbers because I know it is early days. But you think like 80%-90% of it is achievable by the current capability, you just need to invest into the capacities and maybe inch up on the capability curve, or you think there are big missing gaps, and the current platform can get maybe 50%-60% of it, and there are other capabilities that you need to really get into the market, and post that, you will probably be able to get into the rest of the delta of this 2030 guidance?

Dhawal, honestly, you know, we could go for an hour on this particular subject. I mean, obviously for us as an organization, there is very deep work that has been done before we have articulated this. I am genuinely struggling as to where to start and where to end the answer to this question. Let me give you a pointer. One of the reasons we have called out the niche tech and the share of revenue is for the very reason for the investors to appreciate and understand how we have been investing behind niche tech and how that share of revenue is growing. If I mention what we have articulated, we were at mid-teens in FY '25. We have increased the share of revenue to early 20s, and we are guiding to mid-20s in niche tech. And if you look at some of the earlier materials we have shared, niche tech is slated to grow upwards of 22% to 25% in the market. And we believe that we can get a dominant share there. So, I would like to end it here because I think this is a subject where we could spend a lot of time working together on this and helping you relate to the entire strategic direction of the company.

And secondly, from a tariff standpoint, how does the math work on the spec chem., ag chem? Is it exposed to the U.S.? Or do you think the exposure to the U.S. is extremely low and that is not really an area to be looked into?

Our supplies in ag chem. are to LATAM. So, we are not exposed to you guys. In the spec chem, on the Olig piece, our customer is specifically willing to pick up the tariff if and when the tariff was to get implemented. So, we are not having an exposure on either of the two segments on the tariff side.

This is helpful. Just a few bits on the bookkeeping side. So, what was the reason for other income? And how do you see that going forward? And secondly, on ESOP charges, what year do you expect them to hit our P&L? And what could be the ballpark quantum? Will it be sort of a starting number next two, three years?

ESOP charges is not a static number. I think it has been variable in FY '25 versus '26. In all fairness, we have been waiting for completion of the merger. There will be further ESOPs which have to be granted, and hence the charge will increase on the ESOP.

So, what kind of charge are we expecting for '26? Any expectation for '27 as well?

No, it is too early. I have to work with our HR colleagues. I don't have visibility to share with you at this stage. Please allow me some time.

Yes, sure, no issue. And on the other income, how do we see that shaping up into next few quarters and for the year? Because from a Q-o-Q standpoint, there is a significant fall. Was a payment for some of the acquisition done in 4Q or is there something else? Is it PLI income? Something, something else?

No, no, I think we need to, okay, a majority part of the other income was the Treasury- related income, which was invested when we acquired the assets of NJ Bio and Sapala. So, that is what has led to the decline in the other income apart from other minor elements of it.

So, this is the sort of number that we can look forward to in the next few quarters. Is that right understanding?

Dhawal, you will have to really excuse me for these kind of questions.

No problem.

See, the cash balance will determine the other income, right? And we are reporting healthy cash in the balance sheet.

Ladies and gentlemen, we will take that as the last question for the day. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for the closing comments.

Thank you, everyone. We look forward to our next call. Thanks for your time and joining us.

Thank you.

Thank you all of you.

Thank you, everyone.

Thank you, sir. On behalf of Cohance Lifesciences Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you all for joining us. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please note: We have edited the language, made minor corrections, without changing much of the content, wherever appropriate, to bring better clarity.